Independencia de los países Catalanes !

[shokin]

Thanks for you answers, Dixie.

Now I will research for these groups.

For bilinguism, it is false, as in Quebe, as in Switzerland. Bilinguism is an illusion.

Are the Catalan people, are you determinated to be(come) a country, a nation ?

if yes, how do you act to achieve this common goal to the end ? how can you politically be recognized ?

Shokin

[Dixie]

For bilinguism, it is false, as in Quebe, as in Switzerland. Bilinguism is an illusion.

Are the Catalan people, are you determinated to be(come) a country, a nation ?

if yes, how do you act to achieve this common goal to the end ? how can you politically be recognized ?

Yes, bilinguism is false, we would talk about diglossia here rather than bilinguism.

Me and thousands of Catalans as well as people from other parts of the Catalan countries are determined to be independent, but that's just a dream right now, or at least it seems so, because firstly the Spanish government will never allow that to happen and secondly most Catalans suffer from what we call "auto-hatred".

[shokin]

"self-hatred" ? why ? aren't they proud of their own culture ?

Tell me about los partidos politicos en España, y en la Catalunya.

Isn't there a party, whose the goal is the sovereignty of the Catalonia ?

Who is the first ministre of the Catalunya ?

Shokin

[Dixie]

"self-hatred" ? why ? aren't they proud of their own culture ?

Tell me about los partidos politicos en España, y en la Catalunya.

Isn't there a party, whose the goal is the sovereignty of the Catalonia ?

Who is the first ministre of the Catalunya ?

Self-hatred, for instace, because everytime they meet someone who doesn't address to them in Catalan, they speak to them in Spanish (you know, "we are in Spain", "let's be polite" and all that bunch of nonsense that makes them abandon their own language and adopt the other one).

Politic parties? Well in Spain there are PSOE (Workers Socialist Spanish Party), PP (Popular Party, and let me tell you, they worship Franco and all related to fascism; they hate everything related to Catalonia or the Catalan countries, starting from our language; this party should be penalized, and yet they are one of the most powerful nowadays), and other minor parties. In Catalunya we have the same, and also ERC (left-wing Republican party of Catalunya), who claims for our sovereignty and defends the use of our language in the Spanish Parliament and so on (they're my favorite) and other minor parties too.

The prime minister? Well you mean the president, I guess. His name is Pasqual Maragall, he belongs to the PSC (Catalan version of PSOE, still the same party).

[shokin]

Self-hatred, for instace, because everytime they meet someone who doesn't address to them in Catalan, they speak to them in Spanish (you know, "we are in Spain", "let's be polite" and all that bunch of nonsense that makes them abandon their own language and adopt the other one).

Ah ! like the German Swiss people (but not the same exactly) : they don't like hearing us speaking german (because german is very different from swiss german) and prefer speak french when they know that we speak french. The differences is that they don't speak german, when the Catalan you talk about speak spanish. Another difference is that swiss german is less threatened than catalan.

You, who believe in your culture, should encourage your discouraged compatriots to speak catalan, even with non-catalan people. "You are in Catalunya, you have to learn and speak Catalan !" like in any country. The respect of your own culture is more important than the laziness of others people, it is necessary for preserving your own culture. Face to an non-catalan Spanish, face to a tourist, face to an immigrant.

Hola, com estàs?
Estic be, gràcies. I tu ?
Estic be. Com et dius ?
Em dic Joan. I tu ?
Em dic Antoni.
Adéu Antoni !
Adéu Joan !

Funny : Adéu looks like Ade in Swiss German and has the same meaning.

Politic parties? Well in Spain there are PSOE (Workers Socialist Spanish Party), PP (Popular Party, and let me tell you, they worship Franco and all related to fascism; they hate everything related to Catalonia or the Catalan countries, starting from our language; this party should be penalized, and yet they are one of the most powerful nowadays), and other minor parties. In Catalunya we have the same, and also ERC (left-wing Republican party of Catalunya), who claims for our sovereignty and defends the use of our language in the Spanish Parliament and so on (they're my favorite) and other minor parties too.

The prime minister? Well you mean the president, I guess. His name is Pasqual Maragall, he belongs to the PSC (Catalan version of PSOE, still the same party).

I hope that he, Pasqual Maragall, is active in promoving and preserving the catalan culture.

Let you all act with the ERC !

Shokin

[Dixie]

You, who believe in your culture, should encourage your discouraged compatriots to speak catalan, even with non-catalan people. "You are in Catalunya, you have to learn and speak Catalan !" like in any country. The respect of your own culture is more important than the laziness of others people, it is necessary for preserving your own culture. Face to an non-catalan Spanish, face to a tourist, face to an immigrant.

Yes, they are in Catalunya, they should speak Catalan, but not because we want to impose it, like the Spaniards do, but because we want to preserve our language.

Hola, com estàs?
Estic be, gràcies. I tu ?
Estic be. Com et dius ?
Em dic Joan. I tu ?
Em dic Antoni.
Adéu Antoni !
Adéu Joan !

That's funny! You did a little research, didn't you? Well done

I hope that he, Pasqual Maragall, is active in promoving and preserving the catalan culture.

Let you all act with the ERC !

Oh he doesn't! He belongs to PSOE, he's just another Spaniard

[shokin]

Preserving your culture is necessary.

So, it is necessary to speak YOUR language in Catalunya ! others people have to learn catalan in Catalunya, whereever they come from. When you speak CATALAN IN CATALUNYA, you are not imposing your language but simply preserving it by expressing it. It is natural.

NB : if you begin all speaking spanich in Catalunya, ... catalan won't survive. The danger is as great as catalan is near to castillan. The danger is as near as you don't speak your catalan en la Catalonia. Why would be a language more important (have more rights) than another ?



Yes, I researched for catalan online.



Some others questions :

Can you separate the true from the false in this next text :

"In primary education 81% of the language used is catalan. this ensures that people know the language thus preserving it. interestingly, if we move up in the educational scale we find that once we reach the vocational level the use of catalan decreases to about 48% while 51% is entirely bilingual. while catalonians may well select to speak mostly in catalan in their daily activities they are largely bilingual. "

"catalan is spoken by 6,000,000 million people in catalonia and other enclaves around europe. however, it is not a language of interest to foreigners because it is too restrictive. while it is evident that learning english, spanish, french bring a large exposure to many countries around the world, what exactly is the benefit of learning catalan or dutch unless you live there? other than an academic exercise there is very little benefit. now, quebec is not in europe. it is surrounded, influenced and its well-being depends on the north american continent which happens to be anglo. I would think that intelligent politicians in quebec would want to pursue a policy at home to protect language and culture, make them appealing to the rest of the continent, and embrace their situation as unique instead of becoming offensive to the abglo mass that they so badly need for their own survival. this is where I see the separatists position as not productive or of benefit in the long term."

I would be so happy that you keep informing about, for argumentating about the different sovereignties.

Shokin

[Dixie]

:

Can you separate the true from the false in this next text :

"In primary education 81% of the language used is catalan. this ensures that people know the language thus preserving it. interestingly, if we move up in the educational scale we find that once we reach the vocational level the use of catalan decreases to about 48% while 51% is entirely bilingual. while catalonians may well select to speak mostly in catalan in their daily activities they are largely bilingual. "

"catalan is spoken by 6,000,000 million people in catalonia and other enclaves around europe. however, it is not a language of interest to foreigners because it is too restrictive. while it is evident that learning english, spanish, french bring a large exposure to many countries around the world, what exactly is the benefit of learning catalan or dutch unless you live there? other than an academic exercise there is very little benefit. now, quebec is not in europe. it is surrounded, influenced and its well-being depends on the north american continent which happens to be anglo. I would think that intelligent politicians in quebec would want to pursue a policy at home to protect language and culture, make them appealing to the rest of the continent, and embrace their situation as unique instead of becoming offensive to the abglo mass that they so badly need for their own survival. this is where I see the separatists position as not productive or of benefit in the long term."

I am not so sure about the part in bold. I mean, I know that in the area where I live only foreigners or tourists speak Spanish, nobody uses it in daily life. However, I know that in the capitals it's different. Thus the bold part might be true as far as capitals are concerned: Tarragona or Barcelona are crowded with spanish immigrants which won't speak the language.

The next bold part is funny: "It is not a language of interest to foreigners". Well, let me tell you that most students of Catalan are foreigners. And by foreigners I mean people from other coutries who are interested in learning the language in order to be able to use it in daily life. Here are some exemple from my personal life:

In college, an Australian professor told us that he could speak Catalan fluently, but he couldn't use it in the street, because when he went into a shop, the clerks, seeing he was a foreigner, addressed him in Spanish. My professor was so disappointed he couldn't use Catalan in Catalonia because of the "auto-hatred" I mentioned in a previous message.

Right now, I am teaching, among others, Catalan and English. In the English class, there's a Peruvian woman who claims she doesn't understand me. As far as I know, that woman has been living in Catalonia for 4 or 5 years, and yet she doesn't speak nor even understand the language. Why is that? Well I guess it's our own fault. On the other hand, in the Catalan class, there is an Andalusian woman who has been here just for three months, and she can already speak and even write in Catalan. She's an old woman, but she wants to learn, she's interested in the language of the land she lives in.

Honestly, I can't help but compare those two women. One of them won't learn the language, I wonder what she's thinking: "We're in Spain, here they speak the same language as in Peru, there's no need to learn this other minor language", and what's happening to her? She doesn't understand her English teacher when she speaks in Catalan to the class. I am so proud of the Andalusian woman.

Oh, and I forgot I've got a Dutch student! She's in her forties, and she's been living here for about 20 years. Her Catalan is excellent! And now she's studying more in order to improve it.

[shokin]

The next bold part is funny: "It is not a language of interest to foreigners". Well, let me tell you that most students of Catalan are foreigners. And by foreigners I mean people from other coutries who are interested in learning the language in order to be able to use it in daily life.

Good to know ! to tell him !

In college, an Australian professor told us that he could speak Catalan fluently, but he couldn't use it in the street, because when he went into a shop, the clerks, seeing he was a foreigner, addressed him in Spanish. My professor was so disappointed he couldn't use Catalan in Catalonia because of the "auto-hatred" I mentioned in a previous message.

He should tell the clerk that he is very able to speak catalan fluently and he must show that he wants to improve it better. Let him explain explicitely that it is for preserving the local language and culture, the catalan.



The Peruvian doesn't seem to want to learn another language. There are such people in all countries.

The Andalusian seems to determinated to learn the catalan. There are such people in all countries, too.

Oh, and I forgot I've got a Dutch student! She's in her forties, and she's been living here for about 20 years. Her Catalan is excellent! And now she's studying more in order to improve it.

I will say it too.

And let me tell you that I learn some dutch, too. (forseeing to travel to Belgic, Netherlands, ... me gustaria de conocer la Scandinavia.)



I am not sure that "self-hatred" is the only one reason why some people prefer speak not their own language in their own land. Some may want to speak the language of the immigrant/tourist. I am not sure that Catalan people hate their own language.

Shokin

[Dixie]

I am not sure that "self-hatred" is the only one reason why some people prefer speak not their own language in their own land. Some may want to speak the language of the immigrant/tourist. I am not sure that Catalan people hate their own language.

No, they don't, only they treat it as if they actually did. It's an uncounscious act.