Spanish Judge bans Catalan Ad

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Postby Alfabeto » Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:55 am

Dixie, I may be ignorant of many things, but I know a political nation when I see one. It seems that you don't: you write of Catalonia as if it were not part of the political nation called Spain, when de facto it is (clearly you wish that it weren't, but that's a different issue, one of personal preference: many other Catalans I know want to remain Spanish). Maybe it's you who needs to study history. The Spanish State is previous to the Spanish nation--it dates back to the "Reconquista" and the expulsion of the Moors in 1492. The Decretos de Nueva Planta are the beginning of Spain as a political nation, which was definitively established by the 1812 Constitution proclaimed in Cadiz. There is no Catalonian constitution. Besides, the Decretos did the right thing in abolishing Catalan privileges. There is no reason why Catalans should have privileges: all citizens in a political nation should have the same rights. Why can't I, as a public school teacher, apply for a post in Catalonia if I wanted to? I certainly feel discriminated against by current laws, but I accept them until they can be changed. Both Spanish and Catalan are official languages in Catalonia, so nobody should be forced to school their children in Catalan only. You seem to favor Franco-style linguistic repression in reverse.
State and nation do not mean the same.
I never said they did!
I see you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You should have been raised in Catalunya, País Valencià or Illes Balears to understand what we mean.

Nonsense. That's a victimist discourse similar to the one used by the Islamic fundamentalists (saying that "we" don't understand Islam). Besides, I know many people who were raised in those parts of Spain you mentioned and they would disagree with you. It's your own personal view or feelings. I am not arguing with your feelings (you can't do that)but trying to keep facts and feelings apart.

Finally, I did not deny that at other times in history Catalan was persecuted just as now Spansih is being marginalized. But even during the Franco era books in Catalan were published and important literary figures were active. But apart from episodic persecutions, Catalans on the whole adopted the Spanish language out of practical convenience. Spanish is the language which unites us all (as well as hundreds of millions of Latin Americans). Spanish and Portuguese are the only international languages in the Iberian Peninsula and Spain and Portugal the only canonical nations. Imagine if people in Miranda do Douro in Portugal wanted to be regarded as a nation and have their own national football team. What would Rui say? Imagine if Lousiana wanted to have a national football team because Cajun culture exists? What would danyet think? Better still, how would you feel, Dixie, if the people in the Aran Valley, a part of Catalonia with its own separate language, wanted to have a national team like the one you claim for Catalonia? Where does separatism stop?
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Postby Dixie » Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:05 am

Alfabeto wrote: Better still, how would you feel, Dixie, if the people in the Aran Valley, a part of Catalonia with its own separate language, wanted to have a national team like the one you claim for Catalonia? Where does separatism stop?


Why should it annoy me that they wanted to have their own team? What's wrong with that? Why are you against freedom?

I see you use the very same old arguments Spaniards have given for decades. Thanks for comparing me with Islamists or Franco. That's what you do when you have no arguments left, you insult.
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Postby Alfabeto » Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:32 pm

Why should it annoy me that they wanted to have their own team? What's wrong with that? Why are you against freedom?

So the Vall D'Aran is a nation? To stop this discussion from becoming a mere fight over words, I'd like to know what your definition of a nation is.
When I use the word "nation" it is short for "political nation", i.e., those represented in the UN.
I am not against freedom, but of course we need to know what concept of freedom each of us is using. People are not free to school their children in Spanish in Catalonia, which is a Spanish city, and you think this is OK. Who is against freedom?

I see you use the very same old arguments Spaniards have given for decades. Thanks for comparing me with Islamists or Franco. That's what you do when you have no arguments left, you insult

I am sorry if you felt insulted (I didn't like being called ignorant either) but the comparison seemed fitting because Islamists many times argue that the West just doesn't understand, and Franco banished Catalan from the educational system, which is what is happening to Spanish under the current Catalonian regional givernment. I did not mean the comparison to apply to any other aspects but those two.

It is not true that I have no arguments. My argument is simple. Catalonia is not a canonical nation, it is not represented in the UN, so there is no reason it should take part in international competitions. The ad tries to agitate and divide Spanish people, so the judge was right in suppressing it. What is your argument?
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Postby Dixie » Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:12 pm

Alfabeto wrote:So the Vall D'Aran is a nation? To stop this discussion from becoming a mere fight over words, I'd like to know what your definition of a nation is.
When I use the word "nation" it is short for "political nation", i.e., those represented in the UN.



Have you ever heard of something called Occitania? If not, maybe it's time for you to find out.

What's a nation? The term nation defines a group of people who share some values i.e. a common language, history and customs. Many of you usually confuse this term with "state" or "country". You should know that they do not mean the same, and bear in mind that in Spain there are some different nations. But of course many Spaniards ignore this fact, basically because of ignorance, which is to be blamed mostly on the government, IMHO.

Well, Alfabeto, I see what you mean after all. When you use the term nation, you refer to State. That's what I was talking about, the confusion of both terms, which can be misleading.

Alfabeto wrote:
I am not against freedom, but of course we need to know what concept of freedom each of us is using. People are not free to school their children in Spanish in Catalonia, which is a Spanish city, and you think this is OK. Who is against freedom?



I hope the bold part was a mistake :D:D

And about your words, and just out of curiosity, where are you from? Have you ever been to any Catalan-speaking country? Who told you that people are not free to school their children in Spanish (apart from the PP politicians).

When I was small, everybody in my school spoke just Catalan. I mean that Catalan was the only language we used, which was natural, because it was the natural language of the place I lived in. Nowadays, however, children speak more Spanish than Catalan. In my school, I hear more Spanish. I guess this can vary depending on the place you focus in, especially if you live near a capital city.

Alfabeto wrote:[...] and Franco banished Catalan from the educational system, which is what is happening to Spanish under the current Catalonian regional givernment.


Again, where are you from? Where have you heard that? And when? The current government (which by the way I despise entirely) is a Spanish government. They favor the Spanish culture and language and despise our own. I can remind you with many examples of what they have done in the last three years. Like I said, feel free to ask.
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Postby Alfabeto » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:12 am

Yes, I have heard about Occitania, but I don't see how that supports your argument. Is France a fascist country because they do not have an Occitan football team? Is Occitania a nation? Just for the record, I do not identify "nation" with "state". It's a bit more complex than that.

About the term nation:

There are two concepts, one of French origin and which coincides with my point of view. In this view, a nation is made up of a community of people who wish to live together under the same laws and government, regardless of their cultural background. Read Siéyes(1789). This concept has a lot to do with opposition to absolutism and the defense of democracy and equality (liberté, fraternité, etc).The concept of nation in the US is similar. In this view the state precedes the nation (as with the French Revolution)and it is the State's job to build the nation.

The other concept is of German origin. In this (romantic) view, the nation has to do with the language you speak and your culture. I bet this is the concept you are using. People constitute a nation when they share certain common cultural features, historical mythologies, etc.

To satisfy your curiosity, I am from Asturias. I have been to Barcelona several times. As for the information on linguistic discrimination, let me remind you that last June the Spanish Ombudsman criticized the encroachment on the rights of Spanish speakers by the Catalan regional government, that in Catalonia you can be fined if your store sign is in Spanish, that in December 2005 the catalan high court condemned the Catalan government for violating the rights of parents to choose the language in which their kids are to be schooled (according to law, in school enrollment forms there should be a box the parents can check to choose the language, but the Catalan government refuses to provide that box). I can provide links to that info if you wish.
Well, the only thing we agree on is that we both despise the current government, although for different reasons...
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Postby Dixie » Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:25 pm

OK since you provided your list, I'm giving you mine. It's a couple of links and I think they are in Spanish or Catalan, and I've got a whole list too, but I have to translate it and I have no time now. Ask me if you're interested and I'll translate it for you.

Link1

Link2
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Re: Spanish Judge bans Catalan Ad

Postby shokin » Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:32 pm

Dixie wrote:A judge ordered the suspension of a TV advertisement for a match involving the Catalonia regional team because it could encourage children to discriminate against each other.


This advertisement is not discriminating, but the suspension is (discriminating).

By this way, they are encouraging you (the Catalan people), and so more, to search for and to find the soberania (sovereignty).



Yes, donde es la libertad de expresión ? Caca !



Yes... es stupido de tomar el carnero para el lobo, como una virgen ofendido. :lol:

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Re: Spanish Judge bans Catalan Ad

Postby Dixie » Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:14 pm

shokin wrote:Yes, donde es la libertad de expresión ? Caca !


:lol: I imagined you saying it and it made me laugh :lol:
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Postby Tora » Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:31 pm

off-topic - what does IMHO mean - I've always been interested :roll:
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Postby Dixie » Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:38 pm

Tora wrote:off-topic - what does IMHO mean - I've always been interested :roll:


In My Humble Opinion :wink:
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