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Ghaza Pullout

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Re: Ghaza Pullout

Postby Shazzam » Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:58 pm

mr_Love wrote:
shazzam1452 wrote:
mr_Love wrote:all people, muslims, arab are happy becuse the Isreal government started to getout from one city in Phalastine called "ghaza"


it is a reall big victory for mualims and arab and all people who love PEACE


Why are you happy ? What difference to your life will come from this?



well, the UN divided that place to two parts

Isreal and Phalastine " Gaza and west bank"

but the isrealian government bulithom es for isrelian people in gaza which is not including in its region....


What I really wanted to know is where are the people that have to leave going to? Do they have a home somewhere? :cry:
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Re: Ghaza Pullout

Postby Danyet » Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:49 am

Goronman wrote: :shock:... Honestly I can't see why trying to defend his land is against peace. It's rather legitimate : in 1945, the share of Palestine was unfair and as for me arabs have the right to fight for their independance (I don't speak of terrorists acts obviously :!: ), as French, American etc. did many years ago.
Your memory is selective. For 3,000 years the middle east has been in turmoil.
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Re: Ghaza Pullout

Postby Goronman » Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:59 pm

danyet wrote:Your memory is selective...

you're right : I'm not an historian :mrgreen: :wink:
danyet wrote:For 3,000 years the middle east has been in turmoil

But to fight, there must be two opponents, no :?: In fact, If I was an arab and if I read what follows :"history has shown that not many Muslims and Arabs have loved peace." I would be revolted... I don't think Americans went to Irak to save democracy and blabla... did they ? :roll: Americans are not irreproachables, Arabs are not irreproachables, Israeli are not irreprochables (Suez, 1956 etc.) Europeans are not irreproachables too. In fact, nobody is irreproachable.

But the most important today is that Palestine belongs to arabs and jews, in equal proportions...

That is what I think :wink:

BYE
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Postby Shazzam » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:43 am

News coming through in Australia is that the pull-out process has finished two weeks before schedule. In other words it was a great success.

I suppose i'm in isolation to the emotional extent of the events that have taken place, because for the life of me i'm still confused over the whole thing.

I still don't understand where these people went, were they allowed to take their possessions etc?

I am very naive about the whole process. :shock: :?
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Postby Danyet » Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:56 am

Sharon's strategic insight has always proved more impressive than his messy tactical operations. For now, keep that in mind — even as we seem to watch divided Israelis yell at each other while united Palestinians gloat about expelling the Zionists.

Gen. Sharon's counterattack across the Suez Canal in October 1973 during the Yom Kippur war was also seen as reckless, in its disregard for logistics and lines of communication. His 1982 army that invaded Lebanon proved tactically lax in allowing allied Christian militias to commit atrocities.

But Sharon's long-term thinking? That's another story altogether. Trapping the Egyptian 3rd Army in the Sinai, and then showing the world that Cairo itself was defenseless in the path of an Israeli armored division, was a strategic masterpiece aimed at ending the 1973 war outright to Israel's advantage.

The march into Lebanon forced Yasser Arafat out of the Middle East for a decade — and he might have been discredited for good as a defeated terrorist had third parties not escorted him to Tunis or brought him back under the Oslo accords.

So Sharon was always a strategic thinker, and we are seeing his accustomed foresight working in the controversial exodus from Gaza.

The Israeli military is crafting defensible borders, not unlike the old Roman decision to stay on its own side of the Rhine and Danube rivers. In Sharon's thinking, it no longer made any sense to periodically send in thousands of soldiers in Gaza to protect less than 10,000 Israeli civilians abroad, when a demographic time bomb of too few Jews was ticking inside Israel proper.

But Gaza itself is only a tessera in a far larger strategic mosaic. The Israelis also press on with the border fence that will in large part end suicide bombings. The barrier will grant the Palestinians what they clamor for, but perhaps also fear — their own isolated state that they must now govern or let the world watch devolve into something like the Afghanistan of the Taliban.

Once Israel is out of Gaza and has fenced off slivers of the West Bank near Jerusalem deemed vital for its security, Sharon can bide his time until a responsible Palestinian government emerges as a serious interlocutor.

Then any lingering disagreements over disputed land can be relegated to the status of a Tibet, northern Cyprus, Kashmir or the Sakhalin and Kurile Islands — all postbellum "contested" territories that do not prompt commensurate attention from the Muslim world, Europe or the United Nations.

Palestine as a sovereign state rather than a perpetually "occupied " territory also inherits the responsibility of all mature nations to police its own. So when Hamas and co. press on with their killing — most likely through rocket attacks over the fence — they do so as representatives of a new Palestinian nation.

In response, Israel can strike back at an aggressor without worry about the blowback on isolated vulnerable Israeli settlements.

Sharon's withdrawal policy from Gaza is thus a critical first step of turning the struggle from an asymmetrical war of terror back into a conventional standoff between delineated sovereign states. And that can only help a militarily superior Israel.

Politically, Gaza plays well. If the once right-wing Sharon can harness his own zealots, the world wonders why Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas cannot muzzle Hamas and Hezbollah?

From their creepy rhetoric so far, Palestinian militias have proclaimed that Gaza is the first step toward the eventual destruction of Israel proper. But once again that only plays into Israel's complaint that withdrawal is seen by Palestinians as something to be manipulated rather than as an opportunity upon which to build a just society.

While there probably won't be a single Jew in the new Palestinian nation, there are over 1 million Arabs inside Israel. Even more bizarrely, over 100,000 illegal aliens have left Arab lands to reside in the "Zionist entity." Politically correct Arabs will not even employ the word "Israel" in their lexicon , but tens of thousands of Arabs seem to want into it nonetheless.




In a reciprocal world, why couldn't the Jewish settlers stay on in Gaza as resident aliens, adjudicating their property claims with the new government and freely abiding by Palestinian law and protocol?

Sharon is reminding us that, unlike the Arabs inside Israel, they would be ethnically cleansed in hours in the same manner that nearly a million Jews were run out of Baghdad, Cairo, Damascus and Tripoli in the decades following 1947.

The pullout from Gaza is bringing long-needed moral clarity to a fuzzy crisis. Heretofore the Palestinians have counted on foreign support through fear of terrorism, influence with oil producers, unspoken anti-Semitism and carefully crafted victim status accorded savvy anti-Western zealots. But now they are increasingly on their own, and what transpires may soon end their romance of the perpetually oppressed.

So Ariel Sharon leaves, with a "Hasta la vista, Gaza — and be careful what you wish for."
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Postby chemist » Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:33 am

shazzam1452 wrote:News coming through in Australia is that the pull-out process has finished two weeks before schedule. In other words it was a great success.

I suppose i'm in isolation to the emotional extent of the events that have taken place, because for the life of me i'm still confused over the whole thing.

I still don't understand where these people went, were they allowed to take their possessions etc?

I am very naive about the whole process. :shock: :?

Those people will have new houses in a new big town built by Israel.Imagin they are nice and big.
So no loose for them I think.
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Postby Danyet » Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:11 am

Meirav, the 2-year-old, had been strapped into a car seat for safety. But car seats are no protection against bullets, and by the time rescue workers reached the Citroen station wagon, Meirav was dead of multiple gunshot wounds to the head. So was her 7-year-old sister, Roni. And Hadar, the 9-year-old. And Hila, 11. One by one, each had been shot at point-blank range.


In the driver's seat, their mother was dead too. Tali Hatuel, 34, was a social worker who was often called upon to comfort and assist victims of terrorism. Eight months pregnant with her first boy, she had been driving to Ashkelon on Sunday for an ultrasound exam. Then she and the girls had planned to join her husband David at an election precinct to urge voters to oppose the controversial Israeli referendum on unilaterally "disengaging" from the Gaza Strip.


But David never saw his wife and daughters alive again. He buried them Sunday evening, sobbing with grief and surrounded by thousands of mourners in Ashkelon's new cemetery. "You were my flowers," he wept. "I am all alone and there is no one left."


Not long after the slaughter of the Hatuel family, two terror groups — Islamic Jihad and the Popular Resistance Committee — proudly claimed responsibility in a call to the Associated Press. The official Voice of Palestine radio praised the quintuple murder as a "heroic" operation against "five settlers," not bothering to mention that the victims were an unarmed pregnant woman and four children.


The savagery of the attack was similarly downplayed by National Public Radio in its broadcast the next morning. Actually, reporter Julie McCarthy did more than minimize the horror of the massacre. She blamed the victims for "provoking" their own murder — not by anything they did, but by their mere "presence" in the disputed territory.

"The settlers rallied support [against the referendum], saying Israel was withdrawing under fire," McCarthy reported, "but there was ample evidence yesterday to show that their continued presence in Gaza is provoking bloodshed. Israeli troops shot dead two Palestinian gunmen after the men ambushed a mother and her four small daughters outside the Gaza settlement of Gush Katif. The family was shot and killed on their way to the Israeli city of Ashkelon."


In NPR's warped moral calculus, Tali Hatuel and her children are in early graves not because Palestinian culture celebrates the mass-murder of Jews, but because Jews have no business living among Arabs. If McCarthy had been reporting from Birmingham in September 1963, would she have blamed the bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church on the provocative "presence" of the four black girls who died in the explosion?


The Hatuels opposed Ariel Sharon's proposed Gaza pullout because they understood that unilaterally surrendering land to Hamas and the PLO could only result in more terror and bloodshed, not less. If the past decade — the era of the "land for peace" delusion — has made anything clear, it is that the more Israel concedes to the Palestinians, the worse Palestinian terror becomes. Abandoning Gaza will not make the Arabs more peaceful. It will simply strengthen their conviction that Israelis can be defeated through terrorism, and make Gaza a more effective staging-area for violent attacks on Jews.


Notwithstanding the defeat of Sunday's referendum, Sharon says he still intends to go forward with his "disengagement" from Gaza. That presumably will mean the uprooting of some 8,000 Gazan Jews from the homes, farms, and schools they have built over the past quarter-century. The State Department and the United Nations will cheer the sight of Gaza being ethnically cleansed of its Jewish population — being rendered Judenrein, as the Nazis used to say. But having approved Sharon's expulsion of Jews from territory largely occupied by Arabs, what will they say if he then proposes to expel Arabs from places whose majority is Jewish?


No: Arab-Israeli peace will not be won by dragging people, kicking and screaming, from their homes. Nor will it be won by giving land and statehood to the gangsters who run Hamas and Fatah. Abandoning the field to the terrorists will not make the terrorism stop.


The only workable recipe for lasting Middle East peace is the enormously difficult one of remaking Palestinian society from the bottom up. Of destroying its poisonous culture of violence, death-worship, and Jew-hatred. Of educating its people for democracy and tolerance. Of replacing its cruel and corrupt rulers with leaders genuinely committed to moderation.


Only when — only if — such a transformation takes place will the Palestinians be ready for statehood. To confer sovereignty on them now would be disastrous, a guarantee of violence for years to come. If there is one thing a regime that can call the execution of a mother and her four daughters "heroic" doesn't need, it is a reward.
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Postby Shazzam » Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:48 pm

Danyet I read your post and cried. :cry: :cry:

I have only one thing to say: bastards! :twisted: :twisted: :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Postby Danyet » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:18 pm

I just don't understand how anyone under any circumstances could shoot a child or baby at point blank range. They are our only hope. Often I will see someone with a baby and I will say a prayer to myself that that baby will live a peaceful life. I look around sometimes and wonder if God is there. And then sometimes i look and I am sure he is not.

These Jews have been kicked around for too long, thousands of years. They've been persecuted in every country that they have been in and it all seemed to climax during the time of Hitler and his SS. All they want is the little strip of land along the Mediteranean that was originally theirs a long time ago. Why can't people find it in their hearts to just let them have it?
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Postby Shazzam » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:48 pm

danyet wrote:I just don't understand how anyone under any circumstances could shoot a child or baby at point blank range.


These Jews have been kicked around for too long, thousands of years. They've been persecuted in every country that they have been in and it all seemed to climax during the time of Hitler and his SS. All they want is the little strip of land along the Mediteranean that was originally theirs a long time ago. Why can't people find it in their hearts to just let them have it?


I totally agree; it is such a monsterous act that I just can't fathom it~! :twisted: :evil:


All I have heard my whole life is wars over land and religion. I am sick to death of it. Everything is to the extreme; GREED/HUNGER, POWER/VOICELESS, RICH/POVERTY!

Living in the past doesn't help either. I find that alot of young people are carrying the torch of revenge for their families! I mean for goodness sake why can't people just live for now; not for what happened 2000 years ago. There has to be some commonsense. :cry:

From a famous man "Give Peace a Chance." ~ John Lennon.
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