Battle for Taiwan

[MissLT]

I still don't understand, Lennye, I asked if you think there will be war. How did you answer that question? You know what, let's drop it.

See, you've made a wise decision .

If the time hasn't been up, how do you know that changes will occur? I don't know the situation in Hong Kong so I can't really comment on it.

There was a news I read some years ago that Mainland China wanted all the law books in Hong Kong written in Mandarine, law people have to practice it in Mandarine, and some laws would be changed to compatible with the laws in Mainland. I thought nothing would change until the due date occurs. I'll try to find the article to post here for you guys.

I don't think it is China who is afraid of war. The government has been quoted to be not afraid of losing millions of soldiers or losing cities in order to gain Taiwan. They already have nearing 800 ballistic missiles aimed at Taiwan. Not only that, China's military is strengthening with each and every passing day. If anyone's afraid, it's Taiwan and the US. Japan can only support verbally because their armed forces is only capable of 3 to 4 days of all-out conventional warfare. After that, it would be guerilla warfare.

I never said they were. In fact, it seems like they wanted to bomb Taiwan more than ever to me. However, I said there should be a negotiation to avoid the war because according to some Chinese people in other websites Mainland China and Taiwan are brothers; therefore, they should be reunited and be whole as one. The funny thing to me is that they said Mainland China and Taiwan are brothers, but if Taiwan does not back down to ask for independence, China should bomb Taiwan. I wonder where is the brotherhood? Where is the love? Is it love that if someone you said you love doesn't wanna do something with you, you should make that person do it with force? B!tch-slap, kick in the nuts, punch in the face or even worse like this situation, bombing each other to win? I just don't get it..... :?

The Chinese "anti-secession law" states, if negotiations can no longer progress, it gives China the right to advance on Taiwan. Taiwan is "officially" a part of China even though it has been governing itself for over 50 years now. So why would China offer something to their own territory, as they see it, for gaining what is already theirs?

Okay, let's called Mailand China is the big house and Taiwan is the small storage house next to the big house. There are two brothers in the big house. A used to make decision in the big house after taking control over the father; however, B doesn't like A's decision. Therefore, B argues with A and doesn't let A make any more decision. A gets mad so A runs out of the big house to the storage house to live. There are already some people in the storage house, and because A was making decisions in the big house, people in the storage house let A run the house and open business to flow money in the house. B now in the big house looks over and sees A building the storage house real good. B then comes over to the storage house or stands in front of the door and yells, "hey, this house is mine because it's on my property." Well, should A give up the storage house and everything he's built because it's on B's property, which technically is also A's since it was A's at first and he just ran out of it? Would it be fair if B takes everything for credits without giving A anything because whatever A makes on his property should be B's? Hmmmmmm...... :?

[Unknownsu]

There was a news I read some years ago that Mainland China wanted all the law books in Hong Kong written in Mandarine, law people have to practice it in Mandarine, and some laws would be changed to compatible with the laws in Mainland.

Written in Mandarin? Hmm..Forgive me but has there been a mix-up in the transferring of fact, if indeed, that is what it is? As far as I know, China is connected by one writing system unless, of course, the HK law books were all written in English...That would be odd.

Well, should A give up the storage house and everything he's built because it's on B's property, which technically is also A's since it was A's at first and he just ran out of it? Would it be fair if B takes everything for credits without giving A anything because whatever A makes on his property should be B's? Hmmmmmm...... :?

Amusing example, Lennye, but there was no need for you to write all that out. You already know the answer to your questions. Hong Kong/Macau. After 99 years of British rule, nothing can be said or done, it went back to China. What I said was not an opinion, it's a fact. If Taiwan declares independence, China will attack. That's how it is, it's the China way or no way.

[MissLT]

Amusing example, Lennye, but there was no need for you to write all that out. You already know the answer to your questions. Hong Kong/Macau. After 99 years of British rule, nothing can be said or done, it went back to China. What I said was not an opinion, it's a fact. If Taiwan declares independence, China will attack. That's how it is, it's the China way or no way.

As like you said, the difference between Hong Kong and Taiwan is Hong Kong was lent to Britain; Taiwan has never been. And it's been independent from Mainland China on its own. This is also a fact.

"Kowloon Peninsula south of Boundary Street and Stonecutter's Island were ceded to the British in 1860 under the Convention of Peking after the Second Opium War. Various adjacent lands, known as the New Territories (including New Kowloon and Lantau Island), were then leased by Britain for 99 years, beginning on 1 July 1898 and ending on 30 June 1997." (copied)

This is why I don't think people said much about the reunion of Hong Kong back to Mainland China. People were pissed because Hong Kong would become another communist area and would lose all its specialities in a sense. But Taiwan's case..... well...

[Unknownsu]

I understand where are you coming from but now, try to look at it through the Chinese eye.

After his defeat of the cultural revolution, Chiang Kai Shek fled to Taiwan and there he governed, with his KuoMinTang government, with an iron fist. So technically, Taiwan never seperated and there is no country in this world that recognizes Taiwan's independence. To China, it was, and still is, considered a rogue state; in a way, a rebellion that needs to be squashed. That is why other countries are reluctant to come to Taiwan's aid aside from the US and Japan. France has worded their support for China reclaiming Taiwan.

China is playing the bully. Succumb or die. Taiwan wants to settle the matter peacefully hoping an ultimatum can be reached but China won't even approach the negotiation table. How can you negotiate favours with a party who no longer wants to negotiate, period? So really, it's not a matter of China "should" give something back to the Taiwanese people, it's a matter of China won't.

[MissLT]

I understand where are you coming from but now, try to look at it through the Chinese eye.

After his defeat of the cultural revolution, Chiang Kai Shek fled to Taiwan and there he governed, with his KuoMinTang government, with an iron fist. So technically, Taiwan never seperated and there is no country in this world that recognizes Taiwan's independence. To China, it was, and still is, considered a rogue state; in a way, a rebellion that needs to be squashed. That is why other countries are reluctant to come to Taiwan's aid aside from the US and Japan. France has worded their support for China reclaiming Taiwan.

China is playing the bully. Succumb or die. Taiwan wants to settle the matter peacefully hoping an ultimatum can be reached but China won't even approach the negotiation table. How can you negotiate favours with a party who no longer wants to negotiate, period? So really, it's not a matter of China "should" give something back to the Taiwanese people, it's a matter of China won't.

And this is why it's wrong. Totally wrong to me, period.

[MissLT]

5、I strongly hate Canada (where unknownsu lives), since the immigration officer didn't approve my application. . Naturally, I also hate unknownsu (because he lives in Canada). :x 8)

You don't need Canada, Violet. Apply to Australia then . Live next door to Shazzam. I've heard that the immigration system in Australia is really good. They take care of you from head to toe.

[Danyet]

The question should be, ”Who is the real China?”.

The Chinese Communist Party seized power 1949. The former government members and those who valued freedom fled to Taiwan, if they were able. It can be argued that Taiwan is the “real” China and China with it’s authoritarian government is the imposter.

China was one of the permanent members of the UN and on the Security Council. When the Communists took control in China, they should have been kicked out of the UN but they were not and now they get to vote on human rights issues in the UN. This is a disgrace. Things were made worse when other nations sucked up to China like Russia and the USA. Russia has been conducting joint military exercises with China. Idiot US Presidents like Nixon and Clinton have sucked up to China and so have many American, Australian and European government entities and corporations in the name of big business or the economy and such.

China should have been shunned, cut-off and ignored by the rest of the world until such time as the people force in a new and freedom loving form of government such as in Taiwan. If we had done this, perhaps we would not now be wondering whether there will war or not.

Taiwan has not left China as much as China has left Taiwan..

[MissLT]

The question should be, ”Who is the real China?”.

The Chinese Communist Party seized power 1949. The former government members and those who valued freedom fled to Taiwan, if they were able. It can be argued that Taiwan is the “real” China and China with it’s authoritarian government is the imposter.

China was one of the permanent members of the UN and on the Security Council. When the Communists took control in China, they should have been kicked out of the UN but they were not and now they get to vote on human rights issues in the UN. This is a disgrace. Things were made worse when other nations sucked up to China like Russia and the USA. Russia has been conducting joint military exercises with China. Idiot US Presidents like Nixon and Clinton have sucked up to China and so have many American, Australian and European government entities and corporations in the name of big business or the economy and such.

China should have been shunned, cut-off and ignored by the rest of the world until such time as the people force in a new and freedom loving form of government such as in Taiwan. If we had done this, perhaps we would not now be wondering whether there will war or not.

Taiwan has not left China as much as China has left Taiwan..

Wow, never thought of it this way. Give me a few days to suck it in....

[mikexiao]

There are so many mistakes you make.
China mainland and Taiwan island is only separated by a narrow taiwan strait.Just like north Ireland and England.People's Repulic of China or Repulic of China are both China.It's very clear.Why you guys don't understand that this is only a historical problem.Just like Hongkong and Macao.

Democratic Progressive Party of Taiwan wants Taiwan to be independence doesn't mean all the Taiwan people want that.Maybe most of them want unify.But I know now is not a proper time but eventually.

China is a ruffian?Why you guys only think from the view of Taiwan instead of people in mainland.I know most of us support our government to avoid the independence.The 1.3billion people are not idiot.They know what is right what is false.Why you never listen to them?Doesn't that mean you are not impersonal?

[MissLT]

There are so many mistakes you make.
China mainland and Taiwan island is only separated by a narrow taiwan strait.Just like north Ireland and England.People's Repulic of China or Repulic of China are both China.It's very clear.Why you guys don't understand that this is only a historical problem.Just like Hongkong and Macao.

Democratic Progressive Party of Taiwan wants Taiwan to be independence doesn't mean all the Taiwan people want that.Maybe most of them want unify.But I know now is not a proper time but eventually.

China is a ruffian?Why you guys only think from the view of Taiwan instead of people in mainland.I know most of us support our government to avoid the independence.The 1.3billion people are not idiot.They know what is right what is false.Why you never listen to them?Doesn't that mean you are not impersonal?

Pakistan and India used to be one just like Taiwan and Mainland China, but now they're different countries because of differences in politics and religious beliefs.

[mikexiao]

[quote="LennyeTran"]
Pakistan and India used to be one just like Taiwan and Mainland China, but now they're different countries because of differences in politics and religious beliefs.[/quote]

The reason why Pakistan and India being separateed is colonialism.Even now the relationship of these two countries are crital.There is threat of war between these two countries.I know they are not happy.They are still poor.
The policy of "one country,two system" was for Taiwan at first.The return will not change the condition of Taiwan.Indeed they will profit from commerce with main land.Acturally they are doing it now.The gain a big amount of favorable trade balance from mainland.

[Danyet]

I'll tell you what mikexiao, if the rest of the world cut your country off economically you would soon be begging to go to Taiwan.

It is pretty plain to anyone with eyes and ears that there are many in China who disagree with the Chinese government. It is also clear to us that there are many people in China who have been "brainwashed by the machine". Perhaps you are one of those?

[MissLT]

The reason why Pakistan and India being separateed is colonialism.Even now the relationship of these two countries are crital.There is threat of war between these two countries.I know they are not happy.They are still poor.
The policy of "one country,two system" was for Taiwan at first.The return will not change the condition of Taiwan.Indeed they will profit from commerce with main land.Acturally they are doing it now.The gain a big amount of favorable trade balance from mainland.

The point is when people are separated, they don't wanna rejoin. Not many cases like Korea have happened. Why do you want intruders to join with you and mess up your system that you've been believing in? Even when North and South Korea are kinda re-joined now they still have their own systems. This is the reason why Taiwan doesn't wanna join back to China. They would lose their system if they do. It's more than just an independence as a nation; it's the freedom of what to do that they think would be taken away from them. Communists don't allow you do ~.

[mikexiao]

[quote="danyet"]I'll tell you what mikexiao, if the rest of the world cut your country off economically you would soon be begging to go to Taiwan.

It is pretty plain to anyone with eyes and ears that there are many in China who disagree with the Chinese government. It is also clear to us that there are many people in China who have been "brainwashed by the machine". Perhaps you are one of those?[/quote]

I know what you mean."Brainwashed by the machine" in modern China is impossible now.There are a lot of concepts changed now but the concept of Taiwan belongs to China never change.Even young people of mainland state that.I'm not old.I know our country needs to change.Acturally we are changing.And this changing is positive.People in mainland is happier than before.We don't want war.We want Taiwan return peacefully. If you don't believe this,I have to say you are brainwashed by the western media.

[MissLT]

We don't want war.We want Taiwan return peacefully. If you don't believe this,I have to say you are brainwashed by the western media.

With what? A negotiation or missiles like Unknownsu stated in his posts?

[mikexiao]

With negotiation of course.There are missiles in taiwan too.Taiwan never says give up force to get mainland too.It's difficult to clarify.

[MissLT]

With negotiation of course.There are missiles in taiwan too.Taiwan never says give up force to get mainland too.It's difficult to clarify.

Would you fight back someone you called intruders or you just sit back and let them do whatever they want? Anyway, yes, I think they should solve it with a negotation, too. And by it I mean China should step back and think about Taiwan's demands.

[mikexiao]

[quote="LennyeTran"]
Would you fight back someone you called intruders or you just sit back and let them do whatever they want? Anyway, yes, I think they should solve it with a negotation, too. And by it I mean China should step back and think about Taiwan's demands.[/quote]

The same question to you Would you fight back someone you called intruders or you just sit back and let them do whatever they want in your country?

So far,mainland didn't do anything that hurt Taiwan people.On the contrary,we are finding all the chance to get on well with taiwan.Do you think,the trade,cultural exchange,ect are aim to war?

[MissLT]

The same question to you Would you fight back someone you called intruders or you just sit back and let them do whatever they want in your country?

Of course not, but this is not the case for Taiwan since Taiwan wanted to be separated from Mainland China, not invading or rejoining Mainland China. Mainland China, on the other hand, wanted to do it for various reasons, which end up benefitting it. Would it be for Taiwan? Hardly to me. Since Taiwan has been pretty good on its own even it's just a small island.

So far,mainland didn't do anything that hurt Taiwan people.On the contrary,we are finding all the chance to get on well with taiwan.Do you think,the trade,cultural exchange,ect are aim to war?

Would all those things be related to one another in a politician's mind?

[Danyet]

We want Taiwan return peacefully. If you don't believe this,I have to say you are brainwashed by the western media.

Hmm..OK! Perhaps. But our media is more friendly towards China than you would think.

If mainland Chinese want to be one with Taiwan I suggest that they have patience and wait till mainland Chinese government becomes more accommodating.

[mikexiao]

Of course not, but this is not the case for Taiwan since Taiwan wanted to be separated from Mainland China, not invading or rejoining Mainland China. Mainland China, on the other hand, wanted to do it for various reasons, which end up benefitting it. Would it be for Taiwan? Hardly to me. Since Taiwan has been pretty good on its own even it's just a small island.

You can not say "Taiwan wanted to be separated from Mainland China".Even the pigest party in Taiwan-GMT never said that.Maybe a part of taiwan people want that.How about the other part?Why you never care about what they want?They don't want to be separated.Their forefathers are come from mainland.They think they are Chinese.If Taiwan is separated,they'll be hurted. They will be unhappy.They will antagonize the government.Taiwan will never have peace.

[Danyet]

Why don't you just face the facts mikexiao? Free people do not want communism forced on them.

[mikexiao]

Why don't you just face the facts mikexiao? Free people do not want communism forced on them.

Why don't you just face the fact that the "cold war" was totally over.Why you still look at China with the colorful eyes? "one country,two systems" means no communism in Taiwan.You know? Hongkong was return 8 years ago.I suggest you get more information of HongKong today.

[Danyet]

Cold War is not over.
Your stupid Leader, not so long ago told USA to "Not worry about Taiwan when we have balistic missiles pointed at Los Angeles". You had best get your greedy eyes off Taiwan.

[MissLT]

You can not say "Taiwan wanted to be separated from Mainland China".Even the pigest party in Taiwan-GMT never said that.Maybe a part of taiwan people want that.How about the other part?Why you never care about what they want?They don't want to be separated.Their forefathers are come from mainland.They think they are Chinese.If Taiwan is separated,they'll be hurted. They will be unhappy.They will antagonize the government.Taiwan will never have peace.

Those people don't want war between two countries. It's because if there was a war, their children would be the ones who went to war. Some people don't wanna see their loved ones die, however, it doesn't say they wanted to be back with Mainland China. Whoever lives in Taiwan long enough would know it's an idiotic idea to get back with Mainland China. They would firstly give you all the sweets, then they would control your every movement. That's how a communist government is. Let's try to do self-protest on the street and curse at the leaders, then you'd see what would happen to you in a communist country. And tell me how they would be unhappy and whatsoever if Taiwan is not back to Mainland China? What would they lose and what would they gain that make them feel that way? Please enlighten me since I can't see a reason to feel unhappy to not getting back to a communist country, which by the way, would bomb your a** if you don't listen. Talking about irony!

They are Chinese. Who says they're not? When someone from Taiwan introducing himself as a Taiwanese, people'd automatically know they're Taiwanese Chinese. Never once in my life I've heard someone would ask, "oh, so you're Taiwanese, but you're not Chinese?" It sounds incredibly ridiculous to ask such question .

[mikexiao]

Those people don't want war between two countries. It's because if there was a war, their children would be the ones who went to war. Some people don't wanna see their loved ones die, however, it doesn't say they wanted to be back with Mainland China. Whoever lives in Taiwan long enough would know it's an idiotic idea to get back with Mainland China. They would firstly give you all the sweets, then they would control your every movement. That's how a communist government is. Let's try to do self-protest on the street and curse at the leaders, then you'd see what would happen to you in a communist country. And tell me how they would be unhappy and whatsoever if Taiwan is not back to Mainland China? What would they lose and what would they gain that make them feel that way? Please enlighten me since I can't see a reason to feel unhappy to not getting back to a communist country, which by the way, would bomb your a** if you don't listen. Talking about irony!

They are Chinese. Who says they're not? When someone from Taiwan introducing himself as a Taiwanese, people'd automatically know they're Taiwanese Chinese. Never once in my life I've heard someone would ask, "oh, so you're Taiwanese, but you're not Chinese?" It sounds incredibly ridiculous to ask such question .

It's good that you believe taiwanese is Chinese too.But why Chinese needs to be separated?

I remember you said Chinese government need patience.How do you think they don't have patience.We have to face the fact that the governer of Taiwan doern't have patience.They want to be independence as soon as possible.He doesn't think he's a Chinese.The most of Taiwan people want leave the situation as it is at present.Of course,they don't want getting back to a communist country.But the unify doesn't mean that.Mainland government promised "One country,two systems".I think it's better than USA government.USA wants all over the world use the same system like theirs.If not,the US army enter the country and change it.Can you say this is patience?Acturally,Chinese mainland is changing.She is not a real communist country like before and keep changing.You know? "leave the situation as it is at present" is the best choice for today.

[Danyet]

.Mainland government promised "One country,two systems".

Do not think that Taiwan or the rest of the world is foolish enough to believe the Chinese Government... especially with their terrible human rights record.

I think it's better than USA government.USA wants all over the world use the same system like theirs.If not,the US army enter the country and change it.

You must be a mental midget to see USA in this way. I suppose USA should have left China for the Japanese in WWII.

Acturally,Chinese mainland is changing.She is not a real communist country like before and keep changing.You know?

If you think it is so good in China, good. Stay there! Leave Taiwan alone.

[MissLT]

It's good that you believe taiwanese is Chinese too.But why Chinese needs to be separated?

This is not my belief; this is a fact. Taiwanese never claim themselves non-Chinese. Well, as far as I know Taiwanese I know don't get offended when people called them Chinese. They just say they're Taiwanese to separate with Chinese in Mainland China.
Why do you guys need to be separated? Well, why siblings in the same family need to be separated when they get older? The answer is it's life. We have our differences; therefore, sometimes we just need to be separated for our own goods. Anyway, Taiwan asks for their independence, but they never consider themselves non-Chinese. I think you need to get this straight.

I remember you said Chinese government need patience.

I said they need to negotiate. NEGOTIATION.

How do you think they don't have patience.We have to face the fact that the governer of Taiwan doern't have patience.They want to be independence as soon as possible.He doesn't think he's a Chinese.

Again, get the fact straight.

The most of Taiwan people want leave the situation as it is at present.Of course,they don't want getting back to a communist country.But the unify doesn't mean that.Mainland government promised "One country,two systems".

Believing in a communist country to tell the truth or keep its promise is like seeing a pig fly, which never happens.

I think it's better than USA government.USA wants all over the world use the same system like theirs.If not,the US army enter the country and change it.

Yeah, it's better than the US that you get your head chopped off if you curse at your leaders. Good luck with that.

[Danyet]

But you see the situation of Taiwan is not equal to for example a state in USA wanting to leave. After WWII when the Japanese were kicked out of China by the Allies there was a fight for power in China and the Communists revolutionaries took control of China mainland but Taiwan remained free. Taiwan has a duty to remain free in all ways from the Chinese government until such time as the Chinese government changes her ways. I do not hope for Taiwan to become a new nation. I hope that China will give up her restrictions on individual freedoms and authoritarianism and join with Taiwan as free people.
I do not want hardships on the Chinese people but in order for change to come about there will most likely be hard times first. Just as an alcoholic must go through withdrawals before he can get rid of his addiction. When the world gives to China support in whatever China wants in the way of trade, it is the same as giving an alcoholic man money for more whiskey.

[MissLT]

1) Why don't other countries cut off China economically now that Communism is hated by so many people in the world?

This is my assumption. I think the reason is because of the cheap labor. Although they don't like Chinese government, they still need to rely on China for cheap labor. This is how Americans do their businesses. They send their businesses to China for cheap labor and sell the products back to the States with a price of ten times more than they pay people to make them. For instance, Wal-Mart hire people in China to work for them for three dollars a day to make a product that worths about 90 cents, but they sell it in the States for 14.99 dollars.

2) Suppose Taiwan is not as rich as it now be, if Chinese mainland gives all the encouraging policy of working and investment to Taiwanese, as we now do, will they still want to be seperated from mainland?

Taiwan has been doing fine on its own and been literally independent without Mainland China acting as a mother to it. Also, the differences between the two systems that make Taiwan wanted to be independence to me. Like Singapore before they were thinking of either going for communism or capitalism, but they said, "scr*w communism, we're going for capitalism!" Look at Singapore right now!

3) Suppose Chinese mainland is a Capitalism and Taiwan is a Communism, if Taiwan government and people want to be independent, what will be other countries' reaction? Will Americans support Taiwan? Will Mainland admit it?

I don't know this answer, but I think Americans would go for Mainland China since they hated communists. However, I think the rest of the world would go for Taiwan even if it turned communist. It's because if a country deserves to be independent, it should be. Why do we need a bigger group or whatever to have our voices heard?

3) If Taiwan gets its independence without any resistance from mainland, later, another governer of a Chinese city (for example Shanghai) tables a proposal of this city's independence, or maybe half of the citizens in this city agree with the proposal, and of course the city can get support from US and Japan...If this really happen, is there any reason to object its separating from China?

I thought Shanghai is like Hong Kong, which has been belonging to Mainland China although Hong Kong used to be on a lease. :?

4) If any district in China can freely separate, what will happen?

We would have many countries and cultural backgrounds .

5) Can any district in US freely separate from the United States?

To me, technically yes, but they don't wanna. California's economy if it stood alone as a country would be the sixth strongest in the world, you see. And California is still one of the states of the United States.

6) Can any district in any sovereign state in the world freely separate from its country?

Several of them have been dreaming of their indepence, but they can't. Look at Dixie's country as an example . They wanted their independence and are still working with Spain to get it.

[msofchina]

As everyone knows,Taiwan is a part of China!
and it's the matter of China.

[mikexiao]

Yes. It's the matter of China.It's nothing to do with you gringoes.

[Danyet]

Yes. It's the matter of China.It's nothing to do with you gringoes.

Well, I'm afraid that it is too late for that because it has become "our Matter".

[MissLT]

Yes. It's the matter of China.It's nothing to do with you gringoes.

Well what Bush does has nothing to do with you, but you still wanted to talk about what he does. So, why can't we talk about Taiwan and Mainland China? It's because we're with Taiwan, it's gotten on your nerves?

[northernwolf]

I feel sory for you!
Taiwan isn't a nation, before, now and forever!
In 1949, GMT government gave way from mainland of China to Taiwan, and PRC established. But Taiwan is still a part of China, even it is not belong to PRC. Can you say that Taiwanese is not Chinese?
If communism is good thing, why not?

You feel sorry for me? And why's that?

So what if Taiwanese are Chinese? I'm Chinese, does that mean I have to live in China?

Is Taiwan currently part of China? The Taiwanese doesn't seem to think so.

Does China have control over Taiwan? Absolutely not!

Is communism a good thing? I don't think so and it seems more than half the world agrees with me.

Please, if you come here to contribute intelligent conversation, then by all means, speak your mind. But if you come here with a mind full of rehearsed patriotic slogans, then I advise you to get off your high patriotic horse and see the world through an unbiased eye. I understand this is a sensitive topic for most Chinese and Taiwanese. As for the Chinese, ask yourself, honestly, what do you personally gain if Taiwan returns to China?

1. I am sorry for you because you said Taiwan is a nation.

2. I don't think if someone is Chinese, then he must live in China.

3. Taiwan is a part of (Republic of) China! All of Taiwanese think so.

4. The same as above, (Republic of) China is controlling over Taiwan.

5. What communism do you think is not a good thing? I don't think the Chinese Communist Party is a really Communist Party. Do you know USSR? Even if it is not better than USA, it is as good as USA. And now it is capitalism, is it better than USSR?

6. You are correct, I cannot get any personally gain from it after Taiwan returns to China, as well as Hongkong and Macau come back to China. But China is our motherland, I love China is not means I love the Chinese Communist Party. Maybe you cannot understand this point.

I come here just for practising my english, and I am sorry my english isn't good enough.

You maybe missed what all I said is that Taiwan is still a part of China!

greatly support !!!I LOVE CHINA FOREVER!!

[weenixbreath]

I want this thing simple. If there is not a war, then the goverment will broke because deng xiao ping said before that if we don't get Taiwan then chinese people will create a new government which will have a great war between china and taiwan. Trust me, there will be a war because all of chinese is waitting for the day. the day we become more powerful powerful.... It's just a time condition. All we need to do is waitting the day coming...

[Danyet]

What happened to all those Chinese that wanted a reform of their government, like the protesters at Tianeman? Have they all been squashed by Chinese tanks? There must be a lot of Chinese who are not stupid enough to start a war over Taiwan.

[SleepyTear]

Maybe I am not qualified enough to comment on this issue here. But I am Chinese, a high school student of China. I have read all the posts above. Personally, I do agree with some of the "Foreigners" coz I think they are learned<maybe...>, they know so many things!! For me, I even don't know exactly where New York is...

I think Tanwanese are Chinese. This is FACT. And Taiwan is part of China. Also FACT. You can't deny the history,which all high school students of China know well.The Taiwan issue's caused ultimately by the difference of political ground of two categories of Chinese. Why you "Foreigners" want to interfere is just a question of interest,right? It's undeniable.

As to the possiblity of a war, maybe there will be one.
It's normal, there are so many wars within China and Her people. Tanwan will definitely lose. What you " Foreigners" do is just useless, except arousing 1.3 billion people's hatred against you...

I am not an adult yet...so forgive my rudeness...

[Danyet]

No one is denying that Taiwan was not originally part of China but for 50 years Taiwan has been free of Chinas opressive government. The question is: Why, after 50 years of freedom in Taiwan, should the world stand idle and let the corrupt government of China, one of the worlds leading violators of Human Rights, sieze control of Taiwan against their will??????????????

Only the most fanatical Chinese citizen can not see that his goverment has brainwashed him into a "war mentallity". You Chinese who speak of War over Taiwan had better be very, very careful because after your war is finished you are going to be very, very sorry people. You will have nothing!! .........But those "Leaders" who lead you into war will be relatively unscathed!

[ANDYTAN]

I'll tell you what mikexiao, if the rest of the world cut your country off economically you would soon be begging to go to Taiwan.

Ohhhhh danyet! I have been deeply moved by your justice , until I saw this sentence . Why do you want other countries to cut China off? Don't you know that more than 1.3 billion people are living in China and in that case many of us (maybe I am included) would die in starving ? I don't think I could go to Taiwan, Because unlike the way Chinese mainland treats Taiwan, Taiwan couldn't allow us to go there freely, I'm sure of it.


Let's think about some questions before we draw a conclusion whether Taiwan should get its independence, okay? (Actually I hhave no idea which choice is better for Chinese and Chinese future, this is a too big matter, isn't it?)

1) Why don't other countries cut off China economically now that Communism is hated by so many people in the world?
2) Suppose Taiwan is not as rich as it now be, if Chinese mainland gives all the encouraging policy of working and investment to Taiwanese, as we now do, will they still want to be seperated from mainland?
3) Suppose Chinese mainland is a Capitalism and Taiwan is a Communism, if Taiwan government and people want to be independent, what will be other countries' reaction? Will Americans support Taiwan? Will Mainland admit it?
3) If Taiwan gets its independence without any resistance from mainland, later, another governer of a Chinese city (for example Shanghai) tables a proposal of this city's independence, or maybe half of the citizens in this city agree with the proposal, and of course the city can get support from US and Japan...If this really happen, is there any reason to object its separating from China?
4) If any district in China can freely separate, what will happen?
5) Can any district in US freely separate from the United States?
6) Can any district in any sovereign state in the world freely separate from its country?
...
Let me think over and bring up more questions soon. You guys keep on debating, please. :D :P

wow!! hi. violet.. it's ever so wonderful!!! :P i complete agree with you ..I object the taiwan separate from mainland !! in my heart !! i believe that taiwan's in a measure of china forever !!

[ANDYTAN]

[quote="danyet"]No one is denying that Taiwan was not originally part of China but for 50 years Taiwan has been free of Chinas opressive government. The question is: Why, after 50 years of freedom in Taiwan, should the world stand idle and let the corrupt government of China, one of the worlds leading violators of Human Rights, sieze control of Taiwan against their will??????????????

Only the most fanatical Chinese citizen can not see that his goverment has brainwashed him into a "war mentallity". You Chinese who speak of War over Taiwan had better be very, very careful because after your war is finished you are going to be very, very sorry people. You will have nothing!! .........But those "Leaders" who lead you into war will be relatively unscathed![/quote　 NO！ I DON'T agree with you .. who say Taiwan was not originally part of China but for 50 years !! :x who say china haven't Human Rights!! it's just you personly idea!! you..usa always have condemnation our china from everything!! even we right to do and you never to identify with us. I don't know if you ( usa ) have big problem with me and leading to bewilderment us in anything!! ( such as taiwan problem and china join in the WTO before and so on ) , I BElieve that the taiwan already liberated by mainland now if didn't you (usa) make gestures with taiwan.. as matter of fact . you should responsibility for our china's unification......

[Danyet]

You must live in a cave! It is not just me who knows of China's appauling human rights violations. Read these, there are hundreds more, similar.
http://www.hrichina.org/public/contents ... 5fid=26504
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/11/16/china12043.htm
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/10/17/china11886.htm
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sdc/hr_facts.html
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/eap/8289.htm
http://www.olympicwatch.org/

[SleepyTear]

You must live in a cave! It is not just me who knows of China's appauling human rights violations. Read these, there are hundreds more, similar.

I'm sorry. The websites you listed can't be opened. I don't know why. Can you copy some of the content for me? I wanna read them very much.

Not a government is perfect I think,or every government is corrupt.Don't you think so?

Maybe it has been a tradition formed in every Chinese citizen regarding Taiwan Problem that motherland's UNIFICATION is a big cause. Maybe it has been a kind of belief of us Chinese,especially Mainland People, dating from long long ago...

By the way, I dislike we Chinese speak here like madmen. Though patriotism is involved, you should say with reasons. Your words should be convincing? You understand?

Hope you all understand me My English is poor.

[RL]

it's so tired .
i've read these postes all above.
fifty fifty.
i don't want to comment such a topic.
it's very harmful, isn't it ?
let's stop it .discuss some other things.
ok ?

and i suggest ADMIN to this post.

[Danyet]

I'm sorry. The websites you listed can't be opened. I don't know why. Can you copy some of the content for me? I wanna read them very much.

I don't know why you can't open these website links. They open perfectly for me. I can tell you that China's government has blocked certain websites from her citizens in parts of China. Perhaps this is the case here.

Is anyone else having trouble opening those site???

[Danyet]

OK!!! Here is the copy of the first link that I posted. It is a shame that you can't open it because it is also written in Chinese aswell as English.



http://www.hrichina.org/public/contents ... 5fid=26504

Press Advisory: Further Crackdown on Petitioner Mao Hengfeng and Others in Beijing and Shanghai

January 03, 2006
Human Rights in China (HRIC) has learned that a number of Shanghai petitioners have been detained in Beijing and Shanghai, with several being beaten and mistreated.

According to HRIC sources, on the afternoon of December 28, veteran petitioner Mao Hengfeng and several dozen other petitioners were detained in Beijing by police when they went to view the ceremonial lowering of the flag in Tiananmen Square. Mao and her two daughters, along with fellow petitioners Zhang Cuizhi and Zhang Xueying, were forcibly taken to Beijing's Tianhai Reception Center that evening, while the other petitioners were immediately put onto the next train back for Shanghai. Among the latter group, Sun Xicheng, He Guoguang and others were reportedly beaten by Shanghai “retriever” officials in charge of intercepting petitioners (jiefang renyuan). Sun suffered a concussion as a result of his beating.

According to information received by HRIC, Mao was reportedly dragged by her feet down a flight of stairs by three special police agents. She and her daughters, along with Zhang Cuizhi and Zhang Xueying, were forced to return to Shanghai by train on the evening of December 29. Attempts were made to contact Mao through her cellular phone, but communication was interrupted by a person identified as one of these “retriever” officials from Shanghai's Yangpu District.

Following her arrival in Shanghai on December 30, Mao immediately returned to Beijing with her daughters, but early on the morning of January 1 she was detained once again and forcibly returned to Shanghai, where she and her daughters were taken directly to the Yangpu District dispatch station. Mao's daughters were released that afternoon, but Mao remains under the illegal custody of the Daqiao neighborhood municipal office. When her husband telephoned the neighborhood office, an official surnamed Jiang reportedly told him that Mao would not be returning home for three or four more days.

In addition, sources told HRIC that on December 15, petitioners Zhou Xiudi, Chen Zonglai, Wu Yuping, Jin Huijun and others have been placed under criminal detention on charges of "disturbing public order" by Shanghai Hongkou public security authorities for their participation in a petition to the Shanghai municipal committee conference. On December 22, Shanghai petitioner Ma Yalian was also detained by local police and neighborhood committee members and held until December 28 without her family being allowed information of her whereabouts.

[Danyet]

Here is the copy from the second link. It is a letter from the Director of the Asia Division of Human rights Watch addressed to president Bush asking for help concerning issues in China.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/11/16/china12043.htm



November 16, 2005

The Honorable George W. Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave., N.W.
Washington, DC 20500

Re: Your Trip to China November 19-20,2005

Dear Mr. President:

We write to urge that during your visit to China on November 19-20, 2005, you take up China’s dismal human rights record in all your meetings and public appearances. We appreciate the statements you made today in Tokyo about the need for China to allow more political freedoms and to increase political openness and the pace of reform. It is important that you place these issues at the top of the agenda during your meetings with President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao.

We appreciate the attention your administration has given to human rights issues such as religious freedom and the release of political prisoners in China. However, we are concerned that the human rights situation has fallen on the list of priorities in the U.S.-China bilateral relationship in recent years. We hope that your statements in Tokyo reflect a considered decision to refocus the relationship with China on human rights and pluralism.

The human rights situation in China continues to be dire and, in many respects, has worsened in recent months, with crackdowns on dissidents, human rights activists, lawyers, and journalists. While there had been high expectations for the administration of President Hu Jintao and Prime Minister Wen Jiabao, most Chinese have been disappointed with his lack of action on human rights. We urge you to ask President Hu and Prime Minister Wen what their specific commitments to human rights are and how and when they will be implemented.

Across China today, human rights abuses are fuelling rising social unrest. Indeed, China’s stability in the 21st century, and the role it plays in the international community, will depend in great measure on the extent to which it gives its people lawful, peaceful democratic outlets to express their opinions, pursue their aims, and create public accountability. Without the rule of law based on recognized human rights principles, even China’s economic progress will ultimately be fragile.

You have made democratization one of the foreign policy priorities of your presidency. While there have been some developments in village elections––punctuated by attacks on activists who threaten local communist party power bases (for example, when activist Lu Banglie was beaten in front of an international journalist on October 8)––there is no sign that the Chinese leadership is even considering national elections. While we do not suggest that elections can be organized overnight, there is no reason that China cannot begin planning for national elections. This is a subject that is almost never brought up by international leaders in face-to-face talks with the Chinese leadership. Yet no serious explanation has even been offered why China should be a singular exception to this most basic of principles.

The right to take part in the conduct of public affairs is widely recognized in international law, including the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, and the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. All these instruments make it clear that citizens have the right to vote and to be elected by universal and equal suffrage. As you said in your speech in Japan, this is not a western idea, it is universal, as demonstrated in the many democracies of Asia. We see no reason why more than one billion Chinese citizens should not have the elemental right to choose their leaders. This trip would be a good time to end the international silence on this subject.

This is a particularly important time to raise this subject, as last month the Chinese government issued a white paper, Building of Political Democracy in China, that makes it clear that China will remain a one-party state.

We also urge you to address China’s longstanding habit of releasing one or more political prisoners before or after important meetings. Although the release of a prisoner, especially one who should never have been imprisoned, is a welcome event, we urge that you recognize the gesture for what it is: a public relations stunt that does nothing to address China's continued willingness to imprison dissenters. Should a release or releases occur, we hope you will recognize the “revolving door” quality of China’s prisoner releases––for every prisoner released as a gift to a visiting dignitary, one or more others are then arrested––and insist that no new arrests be carried out to fill the emptied prison bed. We urge that you make this point publicly.

There are many other serious human rights issues that we also urge you to raise on your trip. Please see our letter of August 29, 2005, raising these concerns. We attach the letter here as an appendix.

Thank you for your consideration of these concerns.

Yours sincerely,

Brad Adams
Executive Director
Asia Division


August 29, 2005

The Honorable George W. Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20500