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About Bible

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Postby Shazzam » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:53 am

danyet wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:But Adam and Eve were like angels, immortal, until they ate the forbidden food.... :?


No. They only ate the fruit from the tree of knowlege of good and evil. It was the tree of life that was to give them immortallity. After they had eaten the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowlege of good and evil God prevented them from from gaining access to the tree of life and thereby obtaining immortallity. God could not have any more corrupted creatures with immortality!!!


Is it written anywhere in the bible what the fruit was that was on the tree of life? Just curious. I know that they were tempted by the serpent to eat the apple etc but I didn't know about the tree of life.
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Postby Danyet » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:29 am

Again the answer is "No". The name of the fruit is not mentioned.

The fruit form the tree that Adam and Eve ate is not mentioned by name either.
I think it was Renaissance art that gave us the myth of the apple.
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Postby Shazzam » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:08 am

danyet wrote:Again the answer is "No". The name of the fruit is not mentioned.

The fruit form the tree that Adam and Eve ate is not mentioned by name either.
I think it was Renaissance art that gave us the myth of the apple.


SORRY!! I didn't read the whole thread so obviously you have answered this before.

Thanks for the information anyway. :roll:
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Postby Lalee » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:17 pm

LennyeTran wrote:He's well-known even to the non-Christians because of the teaching give the other cheek to your enemy, so both of your cheeks would be evenly slapped. It carries many hidden messages in that story. Being tolerant even to the ignorants, peace within thou, calm, forgiveness, etc. You don't get all that from a not nice person or a Christian who doesn't understand his teaching.

So you don't understand why a good person has to understand Jesus's teaching to get saved?
Let me copy the verse that you are referring to.
Matthew 5, 38
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Through those verses we can see that Jesus is telling us to be good and stand others even if they treat us bad. Now, are we able to do that naturally? No. Most people have a negative reaction. If someone hits them, they will just hit them back.
Jesus wanted people to realize that they were not able to keep the Law, that through Moses' Law they wouldn't be able to get saved but through Him.

Mark 10, 17
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!


According to that person, he was following the commandments well but in his heart he knew he was lacking of something that's why he came up to Jesus and asked him what he needed to do to inherit eternal life. When Jesus asked him to do a nice thing for the poor, he was not able to do it and just left. Through him, we can see that people are not able to follow all the commandments perfectly and God knows it.
This goes for the people who are under the Law: Galatians 3, 10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


LennyeTran wrote:Being nice and being Christian goes hand in hand. You're understood to be nice if you understand his teaching. It's a given; no question asked here. However, if you're a nice person, you're required to understand his teaching to be saved. Hence, this part I don't get.

I hope my explanation above made this clear.


LennyeTran wrote:Why not? Going to heaven is not a reward to me. It's what you deserve. And if you live your life without shame, remorse, regret or anything, why don't you deserve to go to heaven?

If we deserved to go there, Jesus would've never came and died. Why would God have sent him if He had known that we could enter there by ourselves without any help?
It seems that God doesn't think people deserve it.

LennyeTran wrote:I don't agree with this. If he judged you for who you were, then less people would be allowed to heaven. Christians said Christians would be saved if they asked for forgiveness and acknowledged Jesus despite what they did. That's why I've seen people go to Church every week to confess. And what do you know, the next day they've committed the same sin.

I made a mistake in my sentence, "God doesn't judge you for who you are. If He did that, I think anyone would be able to enter heaven."
Replace the "anyone" for "no one". Better now? Sorry, my bad.
As for asking forgiveness over and over again. Those people don't believe in Jesus' death truly.
If God tells them that their sins have been forgotten and washed away.. Then why do they have to ask for forgiveness again?
Hebrews 10, 17
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Now that doesn't mean that you can sin as much as you want. We're weak and most likely to commit sins and that's natural but if we're led by the Holy Spirit, our lives can be changed.
God asks us to live spiritual life not focusing on us or how weak we are but on his Word and the Gospel.
God wants people to receive Jesus' sacrifice and His word through faith.

LennyeTran wrote:So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus? And why would a less nice Christian go to heaven because he acknowledged Jesus? I thought Jesus died for our sins. Doesn't that mean he died for ignorants who didn't acknowledge him, if this is a sin? How come it's still a sin if people don't acknowledge Jesus? :?


Your question makes sense and it's logical. However, to God people who die without acknowledging Jesus as their saviour can't enter heaven. Yeah, Jesus also died for those ignorants who never accepted Him but God accepts those who know they need Jesus to present themselves before God.
God only thinks Jesus deserves to go to heaven now if Jesus advocates for people who believe in Him, then God allows such person to enter.
It's like first someone had a black heart full of sin then when he accepts Jesus' death by faith, his heart is covered with Jesus' blood so God can't see sin anymore in there. So such person is called righteous before God's eyes.


LennyeTran wrote:Yes, you may do that. But the problem is people don't even know how wise or powerful God really is. The Bible was written by men. How sure are you to say that they indeed didn't change a bit to suit themselves?

Yeah, it was written by men but all the messages and thoughts in there are God's.
It's like an illiterate persone comes to you and asks you to write down a letter for her so she dictates and you just write down all she tells you.
As for men changing it, I don't think God would allow something like that to happen.
There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.
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Postby jeffcox » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:58 pm

...However, to God people who die without acknowledging Jesus as their saviour can't enter heaven. Yeah, Jesus also died for those ignorants who never accepted Him but God accepts those who know they need Jesus to present themselves before God.
God only thinks Jesus deserves to go to heaven now if Jesus advocates for people who believe in Him, then God allows such person to enter.


In other words, the fact that we have to recognize Jesus is a capriche, a fancy of his.

I mean, if we do good all our lives, we're damned if we don't recognize Jesus. If God wants us to be good and follow His word, then that should logically be enough for a place in heaven. But no, that's not enough for Him, we have to recognize Him, through Jesus. So egoistic of Him, who Himself claims to be a jealous God... aren't those human flaws and therefore God has no right to judge us.


There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.

Hmm... I have never met anyone who believes in everything in the Bible, as it is written in the Bible. Not one person! But then, I've never met the Pope!

People choose which scriptures they like to follow and how. Plus, the interpretation of the Bible changes with every generation. People burned witches based on scripture from the Bible.

As an example:
Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Personally, I find this idea outrageous and can't understand how a woman would agree to this. We are to follow this scripture and believe that women should be subservient to men?
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Postby MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:26 am

Lalee wrote:If we deserved to go there, Jesus would've never came and died. Why would God have sent him if He had known that we could enter there by ourselves without any help?
It seems that God doesn't think people deserve it.

But I believe there are people who could go to heaven without acknowledging Jesus as a savior, though. What about Buddhist monks, rabis, or other members of any monastic orders beside Christians? Where would they go, heaven or hell? :?
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Postby MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:52 am

Lalee wrote:Yeah, it was written by men but all the messages and thoughts in there are God's.
It's like an illiterate persone comes to you and asks you to write down a letter for her so she dictates and you just write down all she tells you.
As for men changing it, I don't think God would allow something like that to happen.

If you had no faith that those people would do anything good in the first place, would you trust them to do something for you? And if you had no one else to do it beside them, how sure could you say they wouldn't change a thing?

As you said, humans can do no good. That's why we need to acknowledge Jesus to be saved. If we were born with sins and can't get rid of them, changing something in the Bible wouldn't make a big deal, right? It's a part of our already-born-with sins. Therefore, we'd get the chance to ask for forgiveness at the end, anyway. Right?

Lalee wrote:There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.

Since the dawn of life humans have already been believing in something. We're spiritual species. We're too fragile to deal with this cruel world. And especially when we understand life and death life is even harder. For example, when our loved ones get hurt or are about to pass away or other problems, we'll pray to something more powerful than us just in hope that there would be a miracle.

Imagine if someone understood all this and used it on you to persuade you to believe him/her? Would you believe his/her ~ when you were desperate? I believe there'd be a big chance that you would. I never deny men who wrote the Bible were not intelligent. In fact, they were too brilliant and perspicacious to envisage what people fear and want most.
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Postby MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:03 am

jeffcox wrote:
As an example:
Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Personally, I find this idea outrageous and can't understand how a woman would agree to this. We are to follow this scripture and believe that women should be subservient to men?

There's one part in the New Testtament that is similar to this one (I can't remember it now. I'll look for it again). I read and I found it quite absurd. I pointed it to my bf and asked, "and you believe in this book?" He just rolled his eyes. :lol: :lol:
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Postby jeffcox » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:38 am

Oh, there's more!

1 Corinthians 11:8-9
"For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."


There are even more such citations of sexism agains women in the Bible.

Like I said, people choose the parts they want to believe. For this, there is no Christianism if everybody has their own dogma.
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Postby MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:45 am

This, I have to say, happens in every religion. In Buddhism, before women were considered as people who couldn't be enlightened at all. There was no way for women to become a Buddha. I did not know it until my mom told me about this. That was when I decided to give religions a bit of a reading.
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