Just a Thought: France,Riots & Lefties

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ahmads
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Postby ahmads » Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:08 am

Dixie wrote:
danyet wrote:European countries especially have thrown their doors open to a large influx of Moslem immigrants who have no intention of becoming part of the cultures of the countries to which they immigrate but to recreate their own cultures in those countries.
Western nations have welcomed people who respect neither the cultures nor the rights of the population among whom they have settled.


It's true :!: There are more Muslims every day here, living with us, but they just won't adapt themselves to the new country or culture. You can still see those women hiding their entire bodies from head to toes, even in the hottest months. :?

HHHHH,yes Like me ,I will have a chance after a period to travel to Eu ,so I think North of Eu is very cold to me :lol: :lol: ,I can't adapt there ,so I decided >>I will travel to Country that has:
1- weather is familiar to me ,,
2- I must know person there
3- I like this country!?
so I have 3 choices:
1- Roma
2- Borto
3- Barcelona ...
the weather is good in this country .
in Jordan the lowest temperature is (-3) in winter,
so north of Eu is very cold to me ..

hhh .Q :If I travel to Barcelona ,Will you and your boyfriend meet me?..
and Please don't be fugitive from my question in this time like another times ! and Don't bring your Dog ,I know you love Dogs but I hate them :lol:
Last edited by ahmads on Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Goronman » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:21 pm

When I saw all what you've just said, I wonder where I was :shock: ! I'm stunned !!! When I read your first message danyet I 'd the feeling to hear a far-right activist. Who's this 'Horowitz' ? he's a dangerous man !


Who can agree with that ? That's unbearable to read some stuff like 'The muslim riots is an obvious escalation of the Islamic jihad that seeks to conquer the infidel world for the Muslim faith' or 'the Intifada in France'. :o

First of all because : all what is happening here in France is beeing twisted all around the world. We laugh bitterly when foreign countries talk about 'intafada' or 'djihad' and also when American channel Fox don't know how to place the main towns of France on a map (eg. Toulouse -1 M inhabitants is, as for the Fox, in the north east whereas actually it's in the south east ! even Paris was not correctly placed) The truth is that YOU DON'T KNOW ALL HAD HAPPENED AND ARE UNAWARE OF EACH DETAILS OF THIS CRISIS :!: :!: :!: Let me explain briefly :

Our Interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, who's very ambitious and who's a campaigner for the next presidential elections in 2007, has put the stress on the repression for his policy. He's a very provocative man, a rabble rouser who tries to woo voters.

All started when two young boys died in Clichy sous Bois, in Paris suburbs, whereas they tried to flee a check identity. Police chase a group of youth, whom they suspect of thief, and let them enter in a power station -without warning them- where two of them died. After this issue, our dear Nicolas Sarkozy refused to admit this police blunder and said that he wanted to 'get rid off the riffraff'. These kind of statements are simply unbearable. In fact, a inquiry showed that the two poor youngs were innocent. :cry: People in the suburbs take that Sarkozy statements like a provocation. But there are much more events that had added and which had caused riots.

In a word, I'm sorry to say that It's a franco-french problem and has nothing to deal with 'Al qaida' or 'djihad' !!! Nowadays, they (>people in suburbs) are fed up with what they have to live every day -and I can understand that. That's because of people like Horowitz that they're revolting : people who did very dangerous confusions between muslims and terrorists. Most of muslims here are pacifists ; they try to live a correct live in France. When Danyet, Lenny tran or Dixie (I was surprised that a girl as smart as you said that :roll: ...) asserts that 'Muslims every day here, living with us, but they just won't adapt themselves to the new country or culture', it's just fully wrong in France !!! the generation of immigrants who had come just after WWII had achieved to integrate well in French society. The problem comes presently from the generation of 15-25 years people who are -that's right- somehow drop out. When Lenny Tran said : 'They don't give colored people or non-French people have the opportunities in their country', he (she ?) is definitely right and that's a dramatic situation :oops: (but I smile when I think of the victims of Katrina : weren't they in majority colored people... ? ) So it's not a french problem but an international fight against prejudices. This problem has just opened up our eyes and, as far as I'm concerned, I've changed my view on suburbs.

Please, try to be more critical, because actually, you haven't got the faintest idea of the french political/sociological mechanisms of this crisis... :?

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Postby ahmads » Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:43 pm

Goronman wrote:When I saw all what you've just said, I wonder where I was :shock: ! I'm stunned !!! When I read your first message danyet I 'd the feeling to hear a far-right activist. Who's this 'Horowitz' ? he's a dangerous man !


Who can agree with that ? That's unbearable to read some stuff like 'The muslim riots is an obvious escalation of the Islamic jihad that seeks to conquer the infidel world for the Muslim faith' or 'the Intifada in France'. :o

First of all because : all what is happening here in France is beeing twisted all around the world. We laugh bitterly when foreign countries talk about 'intafada' or 'djihad' and also when American channel Fox don't know how to place the main towns of France on a map (eg. Toulouse -1 M inhabitants is, as for the Fox, in the north east whereas actually it's in the south east ! even Paris was not correctly placed) The truth is that YOU DON'T KNOW ALL HAD HAPPENED AND ARE UNAWARE OF EACH DETAILS OF THIS CRISIS :!: :!: :!: Let me explain briefly :

Our Interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, who's very ambitious and who's a campaigner for the next presidential elections in 2007, has put the stress on the repression for his policy. He's a very provocative man, a rabble rouser who tries to woo voters.

All started when two young boys died in Clichy sous Bois, in Paris suburbs, whereas they tried to flee a check identity. Police chase a group of youth, whom they suspect of thief, and let them enter in a power station -without warning them- where two of them died. After this issue, our dear Nicolas Sarkozy refused to admit this police blunder and said that he wanted to 'get rid off the riffraff'. These kind of statements are simply unbearable. In fact, a inquiry showed that the two poor youngs were innocent. :cry: People in the suburbs take that Sarkozy statements like a provocation. But there are much more events that had added and which had caused riots.

In a word, I'm sorry to say that It's a franco-french problem and has nothing to deal with 'Al qaida' or 'djihad' !!! Nowadays, they (>people in suburbs) are fed up with what they have to live every day -and I can understand that. That's because of people like Horowitz that they're revolting : people who did very dangerous confusions between muslims and terrorists. Most of muslims here are pacifists ; they try to live a correct live in France. When Danyet, Lenny tran or Dixie (I was surprised that a girl as smart as you said that :roll: ...) asserts that 'Muslims every day here, living with us, but they just won't adapt themselves to the new country or culture', it's just fully wrong in France !!! the generation of immigrants who had come just after WWII had achieved to integrate well in French society. The problem comes presently from the generation of 15-25 years people who are -that's right- somehow drop out. When Lenny Tran said : 'They don't give colored people or non-French people have the opportunities in their country', he (she ?) is definitely right and that's a dramatic situation :oops: (but I smile when I think of the victims of Katrina : weren't they in majority colored people... ? ) So it's not a french problem but an international fight against prejudices. This problem has just opened up our eyes and, as far as I'm concerned, I've changed my view on suburbs.

Please, try to be more critical, because actually, you haven't got the faintest idea of the french political/sociological mechanisms of this crisis... :?

yes,,, :P

I hope the situation in France
will come be better than Now ,
and riot will finish as soon as possible.

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Postby Danyet » Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:38 pm

Goronman, It sounds to me that you are simply just another French "leftie", with no clue as to how the world works. You give the "white washed " version of the story because it fits into your radical Left ideology. You think that we don't know what is going on in France? We do not have to live in Paris to understand human nature. Poor people do not take to the streets rioting and burning. This is cultural and racial and we are all well aware that the nature of their religion dictates that they remain "unpoluted" by the West.

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Postby MissLT » Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:41 pm

Goronman wrote: That's because of people like Horowitz that they're revolting : people who did very dangerous confusions between muslims and terrorists. Most of muslims here are pacifists ; they try to live a correct live in France. When Danyet, Lenny tran or Dixie (I was surprised that a girl as smart as you said that :roll: ...) asserts that 'Muslims every day here, living with us, but they just won't adapt themselves to the new country or culture', it's just fully wrong in France !!! the generation of immigrants who had come just after WWII had achieved to integrate well in French society. The problem comes presently from the generation of 15-25 years people who are -that's right- somehow drop out. When Lenny Tran said : 'They don't give colored people or non-French people have the opportunities in their country', he (she ?) is definitely right and that's a dramatic situation :oops: (but I smile when I think of the victims of Katrina : weren't they in majority colored people... ? ) So it's not a french problem but an international fight against prejudices. This problem has just opened up our eyes and, as far as I'm concerned, I've changed my view on suburbs.

Please, try to be more critical, because actually, you haven't got the faintest idea of the french political/sociological mechanisms of this crisis... :?

Well, it's the same in the U.S. Muslims people who come here for a better life don't start anything to harm the society; however, the Muslim people who harm the society are not the legal residents. On the other hand, most of them, legally living here or not, still biiiiiiiiiitch at the government. And my posts were about they don't have any appreciation for the new land they're living in, even when they're assigned for a job that could get them a comfortable life and such.
Additionally, the differences between France and the U.S to me is that the majority of jobs in French are not given out for non-citizens of French. My boyfriend's friend came to live in France, and although she's half French half Vietnamese, she still couldn't get a decent job that she deserves to have since she has American citizenship. Thus, this is not an international problem even if you compared it to the Katrina victims. Yes, they are poor and stuff; however, does it tell you that they couldn't get a decent job here? Some of them are poor because they come to the U.S without a single word of English or don't have a degree that is required for the job they wanted to. If they were qualified, they could have the job they were applying for. For instance, I've seen non-native-born Americans being managers, superintendant, policemen, etc. around where I live. And even people with working permit. Some of my aunt's previous employees were from Vietnam, and they could get a legal right to stay here with their working permit that their companies helped them to get. I have to say this is not really a kind action of Americans because this is a two-way act to benifit both sides: the Americans could get cheaper employees, but with the same amount qualification; the non-resident employees could get to stay here to work with the price that they couldn't get in their own countries, even they were paid less than the price they were supposed to get if they were Americans.
To me, France is not like that. It seems that you guys are afraid of foreigners who take all your jobs from the legal residents; therefore, the jobs have to be given out for citizens of French first. You guys have no problem with people coming to your country to live, but those people cannot get the jobs they deserve to have because they're not residents. This, to me, is the core of the situation. Young people or not they still need to get decent jobs to live their own lives, right???

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Postby MissLT » Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:47 pm

Goronman wrote: they try to live a correct live in France. When Danyet, Lenny tran or Dixie (I was surprised that a girl as smart as you said that :roll: ...)

I never rant about myself being smart..... :? Where did you get that?

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Postby louvicine » Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:27 pm

I think people who participate in this topic must to be proud of themselves. Goronman give us the point of view of a french citizen (him) and it is what we need.
Frequently, about different problems arrounf the world, mass media say a version, but we never know what happen with the citizns, because the TV choose even the interviews of regular people with a politic objetive. I mean that every mass media has its politic interest, the information is not really objetive. for that i apreciate the replie of ur friend at Normandy.
A friend of mine who live at Paris said me that the events were not of the size that Tv showed.
On the other hand I want to ask: why if the problem is not about a Jidah or the internation politic, but also about interior politic, the problem is now present in another countries?
Louvicine D´amour

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Postby louvicine » Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:29 pm

Lenin T wrote:]I never rant about myself being smart..... Where did you get that?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think he/she refer to another person :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Louvicine D´amour

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Postby Goronman » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:39 am

First Lennye Tran, I talked about Dixie because I used to reading several mails from her but I've too admit that i didn't know you before :oops: I'm convinced that you're very smart too !!
And I've to say that I globally agree with what you say, especially with discrimination, and unemployment for foreigners in our country. I hope, and I prufundly believe,that things will improve.

I'm happy to see that Louvicine has understood what I wanted to do :P : just bring an objective testimonial from France. As for me, information are amplified by media all over the world and so this is a good way for foreigners to be also heard. That's why, i presume, protests are expanding...

Danyet, I don't know if I'm a 'leftie' - neither if I'm radical - nobody has ever said that to me... I try to be as objective and neutral as I can because racism and prejudices have always led to disasters. Unfortunately, history shows that I think. I'm stunned by the manner you talk about muslims and their religion which is as repectable as any other. It preaches -and any muslim will be able to confirm - as far as one knows peace, faith etc... There are people like us with prejudices against us, not the same apparently :?

I can understand you believe I'm not enough pragmatic but I prefer that to a narrow-minded spirit... :roll:
me.

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Postby Danyet » Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:53 am

Goronman wrote:
Danyet, I don't know if I'm a 'leftie' - neither if I'm radical - nobody has ever said that to me...

It is interesting to note that most lefties don't realize that they are left thinking, preferring to believe that they are moderates. That has been my observation anyway. The radical left actually believe that the Media is right wing.


Goronman wrote: I'm stunned by the manner you talk about muslims and their religion which is as repectable as any other. It preaches -and any muslim will be able to confirm - as far as one knows peace, faith etc..

You should be stunned at what i say about Islam, for what i say about Islam, I back with historical facts. As far as "respectable as any other" I will let this rest until another time in another thread.

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Postby MissLT » Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:38 am

Goronman wrote:First Lennye Tran, I talked about Dixie because I used to reading several mails from her but I've too admit that i didn't know you before :oops: I'm convinced that you're very smart too !!

Thank you, but is it necessary to put personal opinions about other members in a discussion about news? :? I mean, her view is different; however, is it a need to put a little personal criticism about what she said in parentheses?

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Postby MissLT » Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:43 am

Goronman wrote: As for me, information are amplified by media all over the world and so this is a good way for foreigners to be also heard. That's why, i presume, protests are expanding....

Couldn't agree with you more. The cameras can't capture all the moments that are happening; therefore, we must use our own justice to observe and critcize the events. Additionally, we should do research to find out more about the facts.

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Postby Dixie » Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:17 am

Goronman wrote: they try to live a correct live in France. When Danyet, Lenny tran or Dixie (I was surprised that a girl as smart as you said that :roll: ...) asserts that 'Muslims every day here, living with us, but they just won't adapt themselves to the new country or culture', it's just fully wrong in France !!! the generation of immigrants who had come just after WWII had achieved to integrate well in French society.


Well Goronman, I do not live in France so I do not know about the situation there, I was talking about the situation in my country.

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Postby Goronman » Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:37 am

Hi everybody,
Lenny Tran : maybe you're right and maybe I had better not to say that and give my opinion about members (which was not at all negative ! :P ) was certainly a little silly... BUT this was not the main point of my mail, was it ? :wink:

OK, we don't agree, I have to respect your point of view :)

Yet I just want to have your opinion about Danyet's point of view, and especially opinion of muslims if there are any on this forum. Am I the only one to be in disapproval with him :? ?

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Postby ahmads » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:51 pm

Goronman wrote:Hi everybody,
Lenny Tran : maybe you're right and maybe I had better not to say that and give my opinion about members (which was not at all negative ! :P ) was certainly a little silly... BUT this was not the main point of my mail, was it ? :wink:

OK, we don't agree, I have to respect your point of view :)

Yet I just want to have your opinion about Danyet's point of view, and especially opinion of muslims if there are any on this forum. Am I the only one to be in disapproval with him :? ?


I always reject Danyet's opinion....
maybe he is a FBI agent hhhhhhh(mock)
all news that Danyat write are wrong ,
all those indicate aggression to humans specially muslims ,,
so ...I disapprove his views..
I am a muslim ...and there are another people in this forum ...

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Postby Danyet » Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:29 pm

Goronman wrote: Am I the only one to be in disapproval with him :? ?
You don't have to worry, I am in the minority. If I wasn't there would be no point in me being here.

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Postby MissLT » Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:33 pm

Goronman wrote: Yet I just want to have your opinion about Danyet's point of view, and especially opinion of muslims if there are any on this forum. Am I the only one to be in disapproval with him :? ?

I don't know. They have a topic about him in General Discussion forum. You can go there to check it out. I haven't read it yet, so I don't know if they like him or not. Myself? Personally, I hate him for talking about Muslim too much with his long posts; he's been taking all my free time to read his long posts. :lol: :lol: Nah, just kidding with ya. We have different things to post in here. I like to rant about nonsense stuff and movie stars while he likes to post about religions and stuff. That's all.

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Postby Danyet » Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:46 pm

Hey Lenny, watch it! I also post about movie stars like jerk Tom Cruise. And.....I also hate sharks and crocodiles!

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Postby MissLT » Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:50 pm

danyet wrote:Hey Lenny, watch it! I also post about movie stars like jerk Tom Cruise. And.....I also hate sharks and crocodiles!

Oh yeah, I totally forgot. :oops: Excuse me, then. Seeee, you see what you've done. Your long posts knocked me over the head that I couldn't remember you disliked greenies, tree huggers, and jerk Tom Cruise :lol: :lol: :lol: .

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Postby Danyet » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:02 pm

Well here is another long post for you. An article I found to serve as a rebuttal to those who don't understand the nature of the riots.

"" At least the once-Western world is consistent: Like the terrorism that has engraved the blood-drenched anniversaries of 9/11, 3/11, and 7/7 into collective memory, and has transformed Amman, Amsterdam, Baghdad, Bali, Beslan, Davao, Hadera, Haifa, Jakarta, Jerusalem, Nairobi, New Dehli, Sharm al-Sheik, Tel Aviv and Tunisia into hallowed outposts of mass murder, the rioting that has convulsed France has nothing to do with Islam. At least, that's the agreed-upon narrative.

It's Our Story, the subtext, the thread to which we cling. The problem driving "youths" to incinerate lines of parked buses or immolate the occasional grand-mere on crutches is French racism, institutional neglect, failure to integrate. It's also snobbery, and don't forget George W. Bush. But not Islam. Not anything to do with Islam and its non-assimilable legions in the heart of Europe.

That's the word from intelligentsia all over. Even before the riot's last fires have been kindled, let alone cooled, The Washington Post editorial page, for example, said — no, it insisted: "Islamic ideology and leaders have played no part in the disturbances and many of those who are participating are not Muslim." Writing in The New York Times, Olivier Roy ruled Islam out with equally categorical and doctrinal confidence.

How do they know? Yes, the thugs we see depicted through the smoke of burning civilization aren't dressed for the part by Central Casting — either in the beards and robes of the mosque, or the mask and scimitar of the jihad. They look like urban punks, "scum," as French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy called them before diving under the covers with the rest of the Gallic government. They are, we hear tell, unemployed toughs and secular criminals, devoted not to Allah so much as to what you might call, loosely and very grimly, French "culture" — French pop culture, that is.

Writing in the Weekly Standard, Olivier Guitta offers a shocking look at one expression of that culture — rap music as we in the United States have never quite heard it, even at its "cop-killing" worst. As Mr. Guitta explains, some of the most successful bands in France are made up "mostly of French citizens of Arab or African descent" — like our pals in the French projects, or "cites." But where so-called gangsta rap, American style, glorifies senseless violence and sexual bestiality, Muslim rap, French style, fuses that same violence and sexuality to attack the State.

Mr. Guitta has translated some choice examples. There is the rap band Sniper (nice), which, not incidentally, was unsuccessfully sued in 2004 by Mr. Sarkozy for violence and incitement in the song "La France." Sniper sings: "We're all hot for a mission to exterminate the government and the fascists. ... France is a b—— and we've been betrayed ... We f— — France, we don't care about the Republic and freedom of speech. We should change the laws so we can see Arabs and Blacks in power in the Elysee Palace. Things have to explode." Well, of course, things did. But not, our elites instruct us, because of Islamic attitudes toward a non-Islamic country, but because of establishment attitudes toward a downtrodden minority. Integration, we hear, or the lack thereof, is the problem, so integration is also the answer. But how will France — or "FranSSe," as rapper Mr. R has titled this song — integrate this? "France is a b——, don't forget to f—— her to exhaustion. You have to treat her like a whore, man! ... France is one of the b——— who gave birth to you ... I am not at home and I don't give a d——, and besides the state can go f—— itself. I pee on Napoleon and General de Gaulle ... F——— cops, sons of whores ...." It goes on, lashing out in a similarly poisonous vein. Not that this stopped Fnac, the largest chain of French music stores, from praising the popular Mr. R as "a revelation."

And so he and his rap brethren are. But a revelation of what — urban blight or ghetto jihad? Or some new, cultural permutation of both? The vicious contempt, the exhortation to humiliation, the vindictive rape imagery: These are the motifs, at least, of brutal conquest, patterns and expressions familiar to students of jihad for having repeated themselves over the centuries as non-Muslim lands — Dar al Harb (Land of War) — were conquered and subjugated as Dar al Islam (Land of Islam). Is that what's going on in France? Without doubt, such music prefigures a state of war, although no one but the rioters seems to have been listening. Too bad no one is listening still. ""

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Postby Danyet » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:07 pm

Lenny has gone to sleep I'll bet. But anyway the media not reporting the true nature of the riots in France, is like when they used to never mention the Muslim element in the Chechnyan conflict.


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