Battle for Taiwan

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Battle for Taiwan

Post by Unknownsu » Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:22 pm

Heated arguments have been made on both sides. China wants control over the small island of Taiwan for political pride and economical growth and has stated many times that they will not give up. The Taiwanese government wants independence for its people and democracy throughout the island. The US and Japan have sided with Taiwan and fears of war has been on the horizon.

Will there be war? What is your take on this?

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Post by MissLT » Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:34 am

Taiwan, of course. Mainland China has been playing a 'big brother' to other countries. Now it's time it should stop. And no more island should become another communist area, please.

Admiral

Post by Admiral » Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:56 am

China, of course. And I bet people who don't understand the historical background to be quiet and to read.

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Post by Danyet » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:10 am

The people of Taiwan have already spoken so this question is useless waste of time. Taiwan will remain free and free of China.

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Post by Admiral » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:23 am

Ohyes, USA will solve this problem, won't they?

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Post by Unknownsu » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:08 am

Read the question correctly, guys. I did not ask who will win if there is an outbreak of war, I asked do you think war between these two nations will happen and what reasons do you have for believing so.

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Post by Unknownsu » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:09 am

danyet wrote:The people of Taiwan have already spoken so this question is useless waste of time. Taiwan will remain free and free of China.
Perhaps you are right since whatever is discussed here will have no effect on what will happen. Just because Taiwan wants freedom, they won't necessarily get it handed to them.

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Post by MissLT » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:48 pm

Unknownsu wrote:Read the question correctly, guys. I did not ask who will win if there is an outbreak of war, I asked do you think war between these two nations will happen and what reasons do you have for believing so.
You asked for my takes and I took Taiwan with my reasons. Did I miss something? :?

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Post by MissLT » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:50 pm

Admiral wrote:China, of course. And I bet people who don't understand the historical background to be quiet and to read.
Admiral, we've had a dicussion about this in the past, and I know you long for communism, but don't understand historical background???? Give me a break, dude....

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Post by Danyet » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:50 pm

It is hard to say if USA will make good on it's promise to back Taiwan if China attacks. It would not surprize me if USA was too chicken to help little Taiwan in her time of need, especially after the beating the radical left and leftist media has given USA on Iraq.

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Post by Danyet » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:53 pm

edit double post
Last edited by Danyet on Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Unknownsu » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:01 pm

LennyeTran wrote:
Unknownsu wrote:Read the question correctly, guys. I did not ask who will win if there is an outbreak of war, I asked do you think war between these two nations will happen and what reasons do you have for believing so.
You asked for my takes and I took Taiwan with my reasons. Did I miss something? :?
Yeah, you missed the entire question. I asked you what's your take (your opinions and ideas), not what side you will take.

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Post by Unknownsu » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:06 pm

danyet wrote:It is hard to say if USA will make good on it's promise to back Taiwan if China attacks. It would not surprize me if USA was too chicken to help little Taiwan in her time of need, especially after the beating the radical left and leftist media has given USA on Iraq.
I understand that China has become one of the world's superpowers. I honestly don't think this war will happen anytime soon. China, the US and Japan cannot handle such a blow to their economies. And as you said, the Bush administration's support over Iraq has been dwindling rapidly. If the US and Japan opts to stay out of this debate over the island, with China's standing army, Taiwan would be crushed in a matter of days.

Is the US afraid of China? In a way, they should be since China has the largest standing army in the world but they're not well equipped. China would not risk fighting the US because NATO would step in and trade embargoes will ensue which, in turn, would crash the fragile Chinese economy.

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Post by Danyet » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:40 am

I think that China is just crazy enough to stand by the principle that they believe in regardless of the possible consequences. That's scary!

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Post by netyugi » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:16 am

Unknownsu wrote:Read the question correctly, guys. I did not ask who will win if there is an outbreak of war, I asked do you think war between these two nations will happen and what reasons do you have for believing so.
I feel sory for you!
Taiwan isn't a nation, before, now and forever!
In 1949, GMT government gave way from mainland of China to Taiwan, and PRC established. But Taiwan is still a part of China, even it is not belong to PRC. Can you say that Taiwanese is not Chinese?
If communism is good thing, why not?

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Post by Danyet » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:46 am

netyugi wrote: Taiwan isn't a nation, before, now and forever!
In 1949, GMT government gave way from mainland of China to Taiwan, and PRC established. But Taiwan is still a part of China, even it is not belong to PRC. Can you say that Taiwanese is not Chinese?
If communism is good thing, why not?
Since China has recently banned SKYPE and Wikapedia I doubt that you can make an informed opinion.

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Post by Unknownsu » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:50 am

danyet wrote:I think that China is just crazy enough to stand by the principle that they believe in regardless of the possible consequences. That's scary!
I fear you are right. Since Asians put a lot of emphasis on "face", it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see China going all out on Taiwan fully aware of what will happen to their country in the aftermath.

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Post by Unknownsu » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:58 am

netyugi wrote: I feel sory for you!
Taiwan isn't a nation, before, now and forever!
In 1949, GMT government gave way from mainland of China to Taiwan, and PRC established. But Taiwan is still a part of China, even it is not belong to PRC. Can you say that Taiwanese is not Chinese?
If communism is good thing, why not?
You feel sorry for me? And why's that?

So what if Taiwanese are Chinese? I'm Chinese, does that mean I have to live in China?

Is Taiwan currently part of China? The Taiwanese doesn't seem to think so.

Does China have control over Taiwan? Absolutely not!

Is communism a good thing? I don't think so and it seems more than half the world agrees with me.

Please, if you come here to contribute intelligent conversation, then by all means, speak your mind. But if you come here with a mind full of rehearsed patriotic slogans, then I advise you to get off your high patriotic horse and see the world through an unbiased eye. I understand this is a sensitive topic for most Chinese and Taiwanese. As for the Chinese, ask yourself, honestly, what do you personally gain if Taiwan returns to China?

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Post by netyugi » Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:42 pm

Unknownsu wrote:
netyugi wrote: I feel sory for you!
Taiwan isn't a nation, before, now and forever!
In 1949, GMT government gave way from mainland of China to Taiwan, and PRC established. But Taiwan is still a part of China, even it is not belong to PRC. Can you say that Taiwanese is not Chinese?
If communism is good thing, why not?
You feel sorry for me? And why's that?

So what if Taiwanese are Chinese? I'm Chinese, does that mean I have to live in China?

Is Taiwan currently part of China? The Taiwanese doesn't seem to think so.

Does China have control over Taiwan? Absolutely not!

Is communism a good thing? I don't think so and it seems more than half the world agrees with me.

Please, if you come here to contribute intelligent conversation, then by all means, speak your mind. But if you come here with a mind full of rehearsed patriotic slogans, then I advise you to get off your high patriotic horse and see the world through an unbiased eye. I understand this is a sensitive topic for most Chinese and Taiwanese. As for the Chinese, ask yourself, honestly, what do you personally gain if Taiwan returns to China?

1. I am sorry for you because you said Taiwan is a nation.

2. I don't think if someone is Chinese, then he must live in China.

3. Taiwan is a part of (Republic of) China! All of Taiwanese think so.

4. The same as above, (Republic of) China is controlling over Taiwan.

5. What communism do you think is not a good thing? I don't think the Chinese Communist Party is a really Communist Party. Do you know USSR? Even if it is not better than USA, it is as good as USA. And now it is capitalism, is it better than USSR?

6. You are correct, I cannot get any personally gain from it after Taiwan returns to China, as well as Hongkong and Macau come back to China. But China is our motherland, I love China is not means I love the Chinese Communist Party. Maybe you cannot understand this point.

I come here just for practising my english, and I am sorry my english isn't good enough.

You maybe missed what all I said is that Taiwan is still a part of China!

Admiral

Post by Admiral » Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:57 pm

Since China has recently banned SKYPE and Wikapedia I doubt that you can make an informed opinion.
What are you talking about? http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5
http://blog.xintiantang.com/skype/e_396.html

Admiral

Post by Admiral » Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:01 pm

I really doubt why europeans help USA beating Iraq, and why the USA wanna support Taiwan.
If they haven't killed somebody for a long time, they can buy half-life.

http://half-life2.com/

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Post by Danyet » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:06 pm

Admiral wrote:
Since China has recently banned SKYPE and Wikapedia I doubt that you can make an informed opinion.
What are you talking about? http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5
http://blog.xintiantang.com/skype/e_396.html
China Telecom is blocking access to Skype according to reports from people inside the country. China Telecom, according to Shanghai Daily, began blocking in the affluent souther city of Shenzhen near Hong Kong. China Telecom has the broadband internet service that allows access to Skype and has plans to eventually block the service throughout its coverage area nationwide.

Also created is a "black list" of people in China who use the service and those black listed say they have been threatened with fines if they attempt to get around the blocking.

Official word from China Telecom was basic information, "Under the current laws and regulations of China, PC-to-phone services are strictly regulated and only China Telecom and China Netcom are permitted to carry out trials."

China routinely blocks access to web sites on politically sensitive subjects as the banned Falun Gong spiritual movement and the 1989 crackdown at Tiananmen Square, but blockages of sites for purely economic reasons is much less common. One user in Shenzhen complained that the whole thing looks to him like a plot to make back money lost by China Telecom to users who use Skype. China Telecom considers its long distance business as a very important revenue source.

Already China has cracked down on its people as shown by Shi Tao who was sentenced to 10 years in prison on April 27 for "illegally providing state secrets abroad".

The state secrets--He had posted on the internet a government gag order prohibiting the state press from commemorating the 15th anniversary of the ~ crackdown on the 1989 Tiananmen democracy protests.

How did they do it? American companies are helping them. Yahoo provided the contents of Shi Tao's mail account in hopes that the action will win them favour in the eyes of Chinas government so that they have an edge in business and future profits.

"The role that Yahoo played in securing Shi Taos conviction does damage to Yahoo's brand name."--Reporters Without Borders.

Other US software and internet companies, such as Microsoft and Google, have also adapted their services in China in ways that have restricted access to information.

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Post by Danyet » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:18 pm

Admiral wrote:
Since China has recently banned SKYPE and Wikapedia I doubt that you can make an informed opinion.
What are you talking about? http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5
http://blog.xintiantang.com/skype/e_396.html
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... tnG=Search

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Post by Unknownsu » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:09 pm

You shouldn't feel sorry for me; you should feel sorry for yourself. I asked a question about upcoming war and you came along with your patriotic pride. So maybe Taiwan is not a nation yet, I made a mistake. Perhaps it never will be just like Tibet and how the Chinese government won't grant them independence; ruling with an iron fist.

If Taiwan truly belongs to China and China has complete control over Taiwan, why has there been talks of war and invasion? Why does China currently have 700 ballistic missiles stationed in Fujian province just opposite the Taiwan Strait (This number is said to be increased to 800 in 2006 and by the year 2010, 2000 missiles)? Why does Taiwan have its own president? Is it part of the Chinese tradition to bomb the living daylights out of its own land? Or are the Chinese just bored and want to make Taiwan a bomb testing area?

I think you have mistaken. China is PRC while Taiwan is ROC. Taiwan wants independence but China will never give it to them. Of course, you will agree with China. You will want to strip the Taiwanese of wanting to seperate from the mainland just because Taiwan is Chinese and you love China? In your mind, that justifies everything? You are proud, and I respect you for that but your proudness selfishly denies the Taiwanese of what they want. And I loathe people like you.

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Post by netyugi » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:27 am

I'm sorry for myself just because China is not the most powerful country, and it is not the most rich country in the world. Actually, it is a very poor country.
Some Taiwanese want Taiwan to become the 51th state of USA, and some Taiwanese went to Japan to visit "jing guo shen she", maybe they forgot Japanese's aggression to Taiwan also China mainland. They forget the Japanese army killed their forfathers.
I sympathize with Taiwanese, they have the right to keep the status quo, but not ally USA and Japan to threaten to China.
You should loathe the people like Bush not like me. We didn't kill anybody and Mr Bush is killing people everyday.
I hate the government of China for their corruption and canker. I'm proud, not with CCP but Chinese!

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Post by Unknownsu » Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:24 am

So you feel sorry for yourself because China is not as powerful and rich as you want? Why can't you just be content with what you have? Some Taiwanese want to be America's 51st state? Good for them. If they vote and that is what they want, then godspeed to them. Taiwan bringing in the US and Japan is a matter of national security. Let's sum up what has happened so far...

-Taiwan wants to declare independence
-China threatens to go to war
-Under the Taiwan Relations Act, the US vows to defend Taiwan from China
-China passes an "anti-secession law" which paves the way for aggression towards Taiwan
-China sets over 500 ballistic missiles along the coast of Fujian, aimed directly at Taiwan
-Because Taiwan is not recognized as an independent state, countries such as the US can only sell the island defensive arms which cannot defend it against a possible future Chinese missile and amphibious assult

Now, if you were in Taiwan's position and you were given only 2 options, surrender or face complete annihilation, what would you do? The Taiwanese did what was natural, they sought security from other nations. Can you really blame them?

After all that's been said and done, deep inside, you just want Taiwan to reunify with China, right? The thing is, you, and many other Chinese comrades around you, have no reason other than your love for your country. And that, my friend, is blind patriotism.

So now you want to bring this debate over to Japanese war crimes? In my opinion, any Chinese person who wants reconciliation with Japan is a noble person in my books. Forgive but do not forget.
Last edited by Unknownsu on Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by MissLT » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:36 am

Unknownsu wrote: Yeah, you missed the entire question. I asked you what's your take (your opinions and ideas), not what side you will take.
:? Hmmm... I thought I stated out my thoughts and the reasons why I leaned toward more to Taiwan than Mainland China in this matter, which answered your question, but it didn't seem like it to you. Oh well...
Anyhoo, I think there should be a negotiation between Taiwan and Mainland China about the island. Mainland China has to meet Taiwanese's demands somewhere. Shared government, shared power, or something like that. Taiwan has been having its own government; therefore, it's ridiculous if it goes back just to be a province of China as like Hong Kong :roll: .

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Post by Unknownsu » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:52 am

Unknownsu wrote:Will there be war? What is your take on it?
LennyeTran wrote:Taiwan, of course. Mainland China has been playing a 'big brother' to other countries. Now it's time it should stop. And no more island should become another communist area, please.
Lennye, how does that answer my question?

Hong Kong is not just another province. It actually got special attention when it reunited with China with slogans of "No change in 50 years" and "One country, two systems." Hong Kong retains its own legal system, currency, treaty negotiation rights, etc. Such a promised was not made to Taiwan.

China has no reason to meet any of Taiwan's demands. Right now, it's all about Taiwan. In a way, choosing independence is tantamount to choosing war.

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Post by MissLT » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:05 am

Unknownsu wrote:
Unknownsu wrote:Will there be war? What is your take on it?
LennyeTran wrote:Taiwan, of course. Mainland China has been playing a 'big brother' to other countries. Now it's time it should stop. And no more island should become another communist area, please.
Lennye, how does that answer my question?
I still see it my way that I have answered your question in my way.
Unknownsu wrote:Hong Kong is not just another province. It actually got special attention when it reunited with China with slogans of "No change in 50 years" and "One country, two systems." Hong Kong retains its own legal system, currency, treaty negotiation rights, etc. Such a promised was not made to Taiwan.
They said it like that, but there are changes have been made in Hong Kong to fit Mainland China's wishes although the time hasn't been up for changes in Hong Kong system yet.
Unknownsu wrote:China has no reason to meet any of Taiwan's demands. Right now, it's all about Taiwan. In a way, choosing independence is tantamount to choosing war.
I don't see it either, but according to some Chinese people, for example our Admiral here, Chinese people should not fight since they're brothers and sisters. Therefore, Mainland China has to meet Taiwan's demand, for they wanted to rule Taiwan. Taiwan would lose its own government controling and everything; Mainland China should pay them back with something to me. As for me, independence as a country with its own system is what Mailand China should pay for Taiwan to not having a war.

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Post by Unknownsu » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:21 am

I still don't understand, Lennye, I asked if you think there will be war. How did you answer that question? You know what, let's drop it.
LennyeTran wrote:They said it like that, but there are changes have been made in Hong Kong to fit Mainland China's wishes although the time hasn't been up for changes in Hong Kong system yet.
If the time hasn't been up, how do you know that changes will occur? I don't know the situation in Hong Kong so I can't really comment on it.
LennyeTran wrote:Therefore, Mainland China has to meet Taiwan's demand, for they wanted to rule Taiwan. Taiwan would lose its own government controling and everything; Mainland China should pay them back with something to me. As for me, independence as a country with its own system is what Mailand China should pay for Taiwan to not having a war.
I don't think it is China who is afraid of war. The government has been quoted to be not afraid of losing millions of soldiers or losing cities in order to gain Taiwan. They already have nearing 800 ballistic missiles aimed at Taiwan. Not only that, China's military is strengthening with each and every passing day. If anyone's afraid, it's Taiwan and the US. Japan can only support verbally because their armed forces is only capable of 3 to 4 days of all-out conventional warfare. After that, it would be guerilla warfare.

The Chinese "anti-secession law" states, if negotiations can no longer progress, it gives China the right to advance on Taiwan. Taiwan is "officially" a part of China even though it has been governing itself for over 50 years now. So why would China offer something to their own territory, as they see it, for gaining what is already theirs?

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Post by MissLT » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:29 am

Unknownsu wrote:I still don't understand, Lennye, I asked if you think there will be war. How did you answer that question? You know what, let's drop it.
See, you've made a wise decision :lol: .
Unknownsu wrote:If the time hasn't been up, how do you know that changes will occur? I don't know the situation in Hong Kong so I can't really comment on it.
There was a news I read some years ago that Mainland China wanted all the law books in Hong Kong written in Mandarine, law people have to practice it in Mandarine, and some laws would be changed to compatible with the laws in Mainland. I thought nothing would change until the due date occurs. I'll try to find the article to post here for you guys.
Unknownsu wrote:I don't think it is China who is afraid of war. The government has been quoted to be not afraid of losing millions of soldiers or losing cities in order to gain Taiwan. They already have nearing 800 ballistic missiles aimed at Taiwan. Not only that, China's military is strengthening with each and every passing day. If anyone's afraid, it's Taiwan and the US. Japan can only support verbally because their armed forces is only capable of 3 to 4 days of all-out conventional warfare. After that, it would be guerilla warfare.
I never said they were. In fact, it seems like they wanted to bomb Taiwan more than ever to me. However, I said there should be a negotiation to avoid the war because according to some Chinese people in other websites Mainland China and Taiwan are brothers; therefore, they should be reunited and be whole as one. The funny thing to me is that they said Mainland China and Taiwan are brothers, but if Taiwan does not back down to ask for independence, China should bomb Taiwan. I wonder where is the brotherhood? Where is the love? Is it love that if someone you said you love doesn't wanna do something with you, you should make that person do it with force? B!tch-slap, kick in the nuts, punch in the face or even worse like this situation, bombing each other to win? I just don't get it..... :?

Unknownsu wrote:The Chinese "anti-secession law" states, if negotiations can no longer progress, it gives China the right to advance on Taiwan. Taiwan is "officially" a part of China even though it has been governing itself for over 50 years now. So why would China offer something to their own territory, as they see it, for gaining what is already theirs?
Okay, let's called Mailand China is the big house and Taiwan is the small storage house next to the big house. There are two brothers in the big house. A used to make decision in the big house after taking control over the father; however, B doesn't like A's decision. Therefore, B argues with A and doesn't let A make any more decision. A gets mad so A runs out of the big house to the storage house to live. There are already some people in the storage house, and because A was making decisions in the big house, people in the storage house let A run the house and open business to flow money in the house. B now in the big house looks over and sees A building the storage house real good. B then comes over to the storage house or stands in front of the door and yells, "hey, this house is mine because it's on my property." Well, should A give up the storage house and everything he's built because it's on B's property, which technically is also A's since it was A's at first and he just ran out of it? Would it be fair if B takes everything for credits without giving A anything because whatever A makes on his property should be B's? Hmmmmmm...... :?

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Post by Unknownsu » Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:19 am

LennyeTran wrote: There was a news I read some years ago that Mainland China wanted all the law books in Hong Kong written in Mandarine, law people have to practice it in Mandarine, and some laws would be changed to compatible with the laws in Mainland.
Written in Mandarin? Hmm..Forgive me but has there been a mix-up in the transferring of fact, if indeed, that is what it is? As far as I know, China is connected by one writing system unless, of course, the HK law books were all written in English...That would be odd.
LennyeTran wrote:Well, should A give up the storage house and everything he's built because it's on B's property, which technically is also A's since it was A's at first and he just ran out of it? Would it be fair if B takes everything for credits without giving A anything because whatever A makes on his property should be B's? Hmmmmmm...... :?
Amusing example, Lennye, but there was no need for you to write all that out. You already know the answer to your questions. Hong Kong/Macau. After 99 years of British rule, nothing can be said or done, it went back to China. What I said was not an opinion, it's a fact. If Taiwan declares independence, China will attack. That's how it is, it's the China way or no way.

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Post by MissLT » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:08 pm

Unknownsu wrote: Amusing example, Lennye, but there was no need for you to write all that out. You already know the answer to your questions. Hong Kong/Macau. After 99 years of British rule, nothing can be said or done, it went back to China. What I said was not an opinion, it's a fact. If Taiwan declares independence, China will attack. That's how it is, it's the China way or no way.
As like you said, the difference between Hong Kong and Taiwan is Hong Kong was lent to Britain; Taiwan has never been. And it's been independent from Mainland China on its own. This is also a fact.

"Kowloon Peninsula south of Boundary Street and Stonecutter's Island were ceded to the British in 1860 under the Convention of Peking after the Second Opium War. Various adjacent lands, known as the New Territories (including New Kowloon and Lantau Island), were then leased by Britain for 99 years, beginning on 1 July 1898 and ending on 30 June 1997." (copied)

This is why I don't think people said much about the reunion of Hong Kong back to Mainland China. People were pissed because Hong Kong would become another communist area and would lose all its specialities in a sense. But Taiwan's case..... well... :roll:

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Post by Unknownsu » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:54 am

I understand where are you coming from but now, try to look at it through the Chinese eye.

After his defeat of the cultural revolution, Chiang Kai Shek fled to Taiwan and there he governed, with his KuoMinTang government, with an iron fist. So technically, Taiwan never seperated and there is no country in this world that recognizes Taiwan's independence. To China, it was, and still is, considered a rogue state; in a way, a rebellion that needs to be squashed. That is why other countries are reluctant to come to Taiwan's aid aside from the US and Japan. France has worded their support for China reclaiming Taiwan.

China is playing the bully. Succumb or die. Taiwan wants to settle the matter peacefully hoping an ultimatum can be reached but China won't even approach the negotiation table. How can you negotiate favours with a party who no longer wants to negotiate, period? So really, it's not a matter of China "should" give something back to the Taiwanese people, it's a matter of China won't.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:09 am

Unknownsu wrote:I understand where are you coming from but now, try to look at it through the Chinese eye.

After his defeat of the cultural revolution, Chiang Kai Shek fled to Taiwan and there he governed, with his KuoMinTang government, with an iron fist. So technically, Taiwan never seperated and there is no country in this world that recognizes Taiwan's independence. To China, it was, and still is, considered a rogue state; in a way, a rebellion that needs to be squashed. That is why other countries are reluctant to come to Taiwan's aid aside from the US and Japan. France has worded their support for China reclaiming Taiwan.

China is playing the bully. Succumb or die. Taiwan wants to settle the matter peacefully hoping an ultimatum can be reached but China won't even approach the negotiation table. How can you negotiate favours with a party who no longer wants to negotiate, period? So really, it's not a matter of China "should" give something back to the Taiwanese people, it's a matter of China won't.
And this is why it's wrong. Totally wrong to me, period.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:12 pm

violet wrote: 5、I strongly hate Canada (where unknownsu lives), since the immigration officer didn't approve my application. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: . Naturally, I also hate unknownsu (because he lives in Canada). :x 8)
You don't need Canada, Violet. Apply to Australia then :lol: :lol: :lol: . Live next door to Shazzam. I've heard that the immigration system in Australia is really good. They take care of you from head to toe.

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Post by Danyet » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:56 am

The question should be, ”Who is the real China?”.

The Chinese Communist Party seized power 1949. The former government members and those who valued freedom fled to Taiwan, if they were able. It can be argued that Taiwan is the “real” China and China with it’s authoritarian government is the imposter.

China was one of the permanent members of the UN and on the Security Council. When the Communists took control in China, they should have been kicked out of the UN but they were not and now they get to vote on human rights issues in the UN. This is a disgrace. Things were made worse when other nations sucked up to China like Russia and the USA. Russia has been conducting joint military exercises with China. Idiot US Presidents like Nixon and Clinton have sucked up to China and so have many American, Australian and European government entities and corporations in the name of big business or the economy and such.

China should have been shunned, cut-off and ignored by the rest of the world until such time as the people force in a new and freedom loving form of government such as in Taiwan. If we had done this, perhaps we would not now be wondering whether there will war or not.

Taiwan has not left China as much as China has left Taiwan..

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Post by MissLT » Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:52 am

danyet wrote:The question should be, ”Who is the real China?”.

The Chinese Communist Party seized power 1949. The former government members and those who valued freedom fled to Taiwan, if they were able. It can be argued that Taiwan is the “real” China and China with it’s authoritarian government is the imposter.

China was one of the permanent members of the UN and on the Security Council. When the Communists took control in China, they should have been kicked out of the UN but they were not and now they get to vote on human rights issues in the UN. This is a disgrace. Things were made worse when other nations sucked up to China like Russia and the USA. Russia has been conducting joint military exercises with China. Idiot US Presidents like Nixon and Clinton have sucked up to China and so have many American, Australian and European government entities and corporations in the name of big business or the economy and such.

China should have been shunned, cut-off and ignored by the rest of the world until such time as the people force in a new and freedom loving form of government such as in Taiwan. If we had done this, perhaps we would not now be wondering whether there will war or not.

Taiwan has not left China as much as China has left Taiwan..
:shock: Wow, never thought of it this way. Give me a few days to suck it in....

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Post by mikexiao » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:03 am

There are so many mistakes you make.
China mainland and Taiwan island is only separated by a narrow taiwan strait.Just like north Ireland and England.People's Repulic of China or Repulic of China are both China.It's very clear.Why you guys don't understand that this is only a historical problem.Just like Hongkong and Macao.

Democratic Progressive Party of Taiwan wants Taiwan to be independence doesn't mean all the Taiwan people want that.Maybe most of them want unify.But I know now is not a proper time but eventually.

China is a ruffian?Why you guys only think from the view of Taiwan instead of people in mainland.I know most of us support our government to avoid the independence.The 1.3billion people are not idiot.They know what is right what is false.Why you never listen to them?Doesn't that mean you are not impersonal?

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Post by MissLT » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:13 am

mikexiao wrote:There are so many mistakes you make.
China mainland and Taiwan island is only separated by a narrow taiwan strait.Just like north Ireland and England.People's Repulic of China or Repulic of China are both China.It's very clear.Why you guys don't understand that this is only a historical problem.Just like Hongkong and Macao.

Democratic Progressive Party of Taiwan wants Taiwan to be independence doesn't mean all the Taiwan people want that.Maybe most of them want unify.But I know now is not a proper time but eventually.

China is a ruffian?Why you guys only think from the view of Taiwan instead of people in mainland.I know most of us support our government to avoid the independence.The 1.3billion people are not idiot.They know what is right what is false.Why you never listen to them?Doesn't that mean you are not impersonal?
Pakistan and India used to be one just like Taiwan and Mainland China, but now they're different countries because of differences in politics and religious beliefs.

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Post by mikexiao » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:51 am

[quote="LennyeTran"]
Pakistan and India used to be one just like Taiwan and Mainland China, but now they're different countries because of differences in politics and religious beliefs.[/quote]

The reason why Pakistan and India being separateed is colonialism.Even now the relationship of these two countries are crital.There is threat of war between these two countries.I know they are not happy.They are still poor.
The policy of "one country,two system" was for Taiwan at first.The return will not change the condition of Taiwan.Indeed they will profit from commerce with main land.Acturally they are doing it now.The gain a big amount of favorable trade balance from mainland.

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Post by Danyet » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:18 am

I'll tell you what mikexiao, if the rest of the world cut your country off economically you would soon be begging to go to Taiwan.

It is pretty plain to anyone with eyes and ears that there are many in China who disagree with the Chinese government. It is also clear to us that there are many people in China who have been "brainwashed by the machine". Perhaps you are one of those?

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Post by MissLT » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:26 am

mikexiao wrote: The reason why Pakistan and India being separateed is colonialism.Even now the relationship of these two countries are crital.There is threat of war between these two countries.I know they are not happy.They are still poor.
The policy of "one country,two system" was for Taiwan at first.The return will not change the condition of Taiwan.Indeed they will profit from commerce with main land.Acturally they are doing it now.The gain a big amount of favorable trade balance from mainland.
The point is when people are separated, they don't wanna rejoin. Not many cases like Korea have happened. Why do you want intruders to join with you and mess up your system that you've been believing in? Even when North and South Korea are kinda re-joined now they still have their own systems. This is the reason why Taiwan doesn't wanna join back to China. They would lose their system if they do. It's more than just an independence as a nation; it's the freedom of what to do that they think would be taken away from them. Communists don't allow you do ~.

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Post by mikexiao » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:34 am

[quote="danyet"]I'll tell you what mikexiao, if the rest of the world cut your country off economically you would soon be begging to go to Taiwan.

It is pretty plain to anyone with eyes and ears that there are many in China who disagree with the Chinese government. It is also clear to us that there are many people in China who have been "brainwashed by the machine". Perhaps you are one of those?[/quote]

I know what you mean."Brainwashed by the machine" in modern China is impossible now.There are a lot of concepts changed now but the concept of Taiwan belongs to China never change.Even young people of mainland state that.I'm not old.I know our country needs to change.Acturally we are changing.And this changing is positive.People in mainland is happier than before.We don't want war.We want Taiwan return peacefully. If you don't believe this,I have to say you are brainwashed by the western media.

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Post by MissLT » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:39 am

mikexiao wrote: We don't want war.We want Taiwan return peacefully. If you don't believe this,I have to say you are brainwashed by the western media.
With what? A negotiation or missiles like Unknownsu stated in his posts? :roll:

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Post by mikexiao » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:50 am

With negotiation of course.There are missiles in taiwan too.Taiwan never says give up force to get mainland too.It's difficult to clarify.

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Post by MissLT » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:53 am

mikexiao wrote:With negotiation of course.There are missiles in taiwan too.Taiwan never says give up force to get mainland too.It's difficult to clarify.
Would you fight back someone you called intruders or you just sit back and let them do whatever they want? Anyway, yes, I think they should solve it with a negotation, too. And by it I mean China should step back and think about Taiwan's demands.

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Post by mikexiao » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:07 am

[quote="LennyeTran"]
Would you fight back someone you called intruders or you just sit back and let them do whatever they want? Anyway, yes, I think they should solve it with a negotation, too. And by it I mean China should step back and think about Taiwan's demands.[/quote]

The same question to you Would you fight back someone you called intruders or you just sit back and let them do whatever they want in your country?

So far,mainland didn't do anything that hurt Taiwan people.On the contrary,we are finding all the chance to get on well with taiwan.Do you think,the trade,cultural exchange,ect are aim to war?

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Post by MissLT » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:29 am

mikexiao wrote:
The same question to you Would you fight back someone you called intruders or you just sit back and let them do whatever they want in your country?
Of course not, but this is not the case for Taiwan since Taiwan wanted to be separated from Mainland China, not invading or rejoining Mainland China. Mainland China, on the other hand, wanted to do it for various reasons, which end up benefitting it. Would it be for Taiwan? Hardly to me. Since Taiwan has been pretty good on its own even it's just a small island.
mikexiao wrote:So far,mainland didn't do anything that hurt Taiwan people.On the contrary,we are finding all the chance to get on well with taiwan.Do you think,the trade,cultural exchange,ect are aim to war?
Would all those things be related to one another in a politician's mind?

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Post by Danyet » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:19 am

mikexiao wrote:We want Taiwan return peacefully. If you don't believe this,I have to say you are brainwashed by the western media.
Hmm..OK! Perhaps. But our media is more friendly towards China than you would think.

If mainland Chinese want to be one with Taiwan I suggest that they have patience and wait till mainland Chinese government becomes more accommodating.

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Post by mikexiao » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:24 am

LennyeTran wrote: Of course not, but this is not the case for Taiwan since Taiwan wanted to be separated from Mainland China, not invading or rejoining Mainland China. Mainland China, on the other hand, wanted to do it for various reasons, which end up benefitting it. Would it be for Taiwan? Hardly to me. Since Taiwan has been pretty good on its own even it's just a small island.
You can not say "Taiwan wanted to be separated from Mainland China".Even the pigest party in Taiwan-GMT never said that.Maybe a part of taiwan people want that.How about the other part?Why you never care about what they want?They don't want to be separated.Their forefathers are come from mainland.They think they are Chinese.If Taiwan is separated,they'll be hurted. They will be unhappy.They will antagonize the government.Taiwan will never have peace.

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Post by Danyet » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:55 am

Why don't you just face the facts mikexiao? Free people do not want communism forced on them.

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Post by mikexiao » Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:01 am

danyet wrote:Why don't you just face the facts mikexiao? Free people do not want communism forced on them.
Why don't you just face the fact that the "cold war" was totally over.Why you still look at China with the colorful eyes? "one country,two systems" means no communism in Taiwan.You know? Hongkong was return 8 years ago.I suggest you get more information of HongKong today.

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Post by Danyet » Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:21 am

Cold War is not over.
Your stupid Leader, not so long ago told USA to "Not worry about Taiwan when we have balistic missiles pointed at Los Angeles". You had best get your greedy eyes off Taiwan.

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Post by MissLT » Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:19 am

mikexiao wrote: You can not say "Taiwan wanted to be separated from Mainland China".Even the pigest party in Taiwan-GMT never said that.Maybe a part of taiwan people want that.How about the other part?Why you never care about what they want?They don't want to be separated.Their forefathers are come from mainland.They think they are Chinese.If Taiwan is separated,they'll be hurted. They will be unhappy.They will antagonize the government.Taiwan will never have peace.
Those people don't want war between two countries. It's because if there was a war, their children would be the ones who went to war. Some people don't wanna see their loved ones die, however, it doesn't say they wanted to be back with Mainland China. Whoever lives in Taiwan long enough would know it's an idiotic idea to get back with Mainland China. They would firstly give you all the sweets, then they would control your every movement. That's how a communist government is. Let's try to do self-protest on the street and curse at the leaders, then you'd see what would happen to you in a communist country. And tell me how they would be unhappy and whatsoever if Taiwan is not back to Mainland China? What would they lose and what would they gain that make them feel that way? Please enlighten me since I can't see a reason to feel unhappy to not getting back to a communist country, which by the way, would bomb your a** if you don't listen. Talking about irony! :roll:

They are Chinese. Who says they're not? When someone from Taiwan introducing himself as a Taiwanese, people'd automatically know they're Taiwanese Chinese. Never once in my life I've heard someone would ask, "oh, so you're Taiwanese, but you're not Chinese?" It sounds incredibly ridiculous to ask such question :roll: .

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Post by mikexiao » Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:06 am

LennyeTran wrote: Those people don't want war between two countries. It's because if there was a war, their children would be the ones who went to war. Some people don't wanna see their loved ones die, however, it doesn't say they wanted to be back with Mainland China. Whoever lives in Taiwan long enough would know it's an idiotic idea to get back with Mainland China. They would firstly give you all the sweets, then they would control your every movement. That's how a communist government is. Let's try to do self-protest on the street and curse at the leaders, then you'd see what would happen to you in a communist country. And tell me how they would be unhappy and whatsoever if Taiwan is not back to Mainland China? What would they lose and what would they gain that make them feel that way? Please enlighten me since I can't see a reason to feel unhappy to not getting back to a communist country, which by the way, would bomb your a** if you don't listen. Talking about irony! :roll:

They are Chinese. Who says they're not? When someone from Taiwan introducing himself as a Taiwanese, people'd automatically know they're Taiwanese Chinese. Never once in my life I've heard someone would ask, "oh, so you're Taiwanese, but you're not Chinese?" It sounds incredibly ridiculous to ask such question :roll: .
It's good that you believe taiwanese is Chinese too.But why Chinese needs to be separated?

I remember you said Chinese government need patience.How do you think they don't have patience.We have to face the fact that the governer of Taiwan doern't have patience.They want to be independence as soon as possible.He doesn't think he's a Chinese.The most of Taiwan people want leave the situation as it is at present.Of course,they don't want getting back to a communist country.But the unify doesn't mean that.Mainland government promised "One country,two systems".I think it's better than USA government.USA wants all over the world use the same system like theirs.If not,the US army enter the country and change it.Can you say this is patience?Acturally,Chinese mainland is changing.She is not a real communist country like before and keep changing.You know? "leave the situation as it is at present" is the best choice for today.

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Post by Danyet » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:51 am

mikexiao wrote:.Mainland government promised "One country,two systems".
Do not think that Taiwan or the rest of the world is foolish enough to believe the Chinese Government... especially with their terrible human rights record.
mikexiao wrote: I think it's better than USA government.USA wants all over the world use the same system like theirs.If not,the US army enter the country and change it.
You must be a mental midget to see USA in this way. I suppose USA should have left China for the Japanese in WWII.
mikexiao wrote: Acturally,Chinese mainland is changing.She is not a real communist country like before and keep changing.You know?
If you think it is so good in China, good. Stay there! Leave Taiwan alone.

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Post by MissLT » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:58 am

mikexiao wrote:
It's good that you believe taiwanese is Chinese too.But why Chinese needs to be separated?
This is not my belief; this is a fact. Taiwanese never claim themselves non-Chinese. Well, as far as I know Taiwanese I know don't get offended when people called them Chinese. They just say they're Taiwanese to separate with Chinese in Mainland China.
Why do you guys need to be separated? Well, why siblings in the same family need to be separated when they get older? The answer is it's life. We have our differences; therefore, sometimes we just need to be separated for our own goods. Anyway, Taiwan asks for their independence, but they never consider themselves non-Chinese. I think you need to get this straight.
mikexiao wrote:I remember you said Chinese government need patience.
I said they need to negotiate. NEGOTIATION.
mikexiao wrote:How do you think they don't have patience.We have to face the fact that the governer of Taiwan doern't have patience.They want to be independence as soon as possible.He doesn't think he's a Chinese.
Again, get the fact straight.
mikexiao wrote:The most of Taiwan people want leave the situation as it is at present.Of course,they don't want getting back to a communist country.But the unify doesn't mean that.Mainland government promised "One country,two systems".
Believing in a communist country to tell the truth or keep its promise is like seeing a pig fly, which never happens.

mikexiao wrote:I think it's better than USA government.USA wants all over the world use the same system like theirs.If not,the US army enter the country and change it.
Yeah, it's better than the US that you get your head chopped off if you curse at your leaders. Good luck with that.

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Post by Danyet » Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:12 pm

But you see the situation of Taiwan is not equal to for example a state in USA wanting to leave. After WWII when the Japanese were kicked out of China by the Allies there was a fight for power in China and the Communists revolutionaries took control of China mainland but Taiwan remained free. Taiwan has a duty to remain free in all ways from the Chinese government until such time as the Chinese government changes her ways. I do not hope for Taiwan to become a new nation. I hope that China will give up her restrictions on individual freedoms and authoritarianism and join with Taiwan as free people.
I do not want hardships on the Chinese people but in order for change to come about there will most likely be hard times first. Just as an alcoholic must go through withdrawals before he can get rid of his addiction. When the world gives to China support in whatever China wants in the way of trade, it is the same as giving an alcoholic man money for more whiskey.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:52 am

violet wrote: 1) Why don't other countries cut off China economically now that Communism is hated by so many people in the world?
This is my assumption. I think the reason is because of the cheap labor. Although they don't like Chinese government, they still need to rely on China for cheap labor. This is how Americans do their businesses. They send their businesses to China for cheap labor and sell the products back to the States with a price of ten times more than they pay people to make them. For instance, Wal-Mart hire people in China to work for them for three dollars a day to make a product that worths about 90 cents, but they sell it in the States for 14.99 dollars.
violet wrote:2) Suppose Taiwan is not as rich as it now be, if Chinese mainland gives all the encouraging policy of working and investment to Taiwanese, as we now do, will they still want to be seperated from mainland?
Taiwan has been doing fine on its own and been literally independent without Mainland China acting as a mother to it. Also, the differences between the two systems that make Taiwan wanted to be independence to me. Like Singapore before they were thinking of either going for communism or capitalism, but they said, "scr*w communism, we're going for capitalism!" Look at Singapore right now!
violet wrote:3) Suppose Chinese mainland is a Capitalism and Taiwan is a Communism, if Taiwan government and people want to be independent, what will be other countries' reaction? Will Americans support Taiwan? Will Mainland admit it?
I don't know this answer, but I think Americans would go for Mainland China since they hated communists. However, I think the rest of the world would go for Taiwan even if it turned communist. It's because if a country deserves to be independent, it should be. Why do we need a bigger group or whatever to have our voices heard? :roll:
violet wrote:3) If Taiwan gets its independence without any resistance from mainland, later, another governer of a Chinese city (for example Shanghai) tables a proposal of this city's independence, or maybe half of the citizens in this city agree with the proposal, and of course the city can get support from US and Japan...If this really happen, is there any reason to object its separating from China?
I thought Shanghai is like Hong Kong, which has been belonging to Mainland China although Hong Kong used to be on a lease. :?
violet wrote:4) If any district in China can freely separate, what will happen?
We would have many countries and cultural backgrounds :wink: .
violet wrote:5) Can any district in US freely separate from the United States?
To me, technically yes, but they don't wanna. California's economy if it stood alone as a country would be the sixth strongest in the world, you see. And California is still one of the states of the United States.
violet wrote:6) Can any district in any sovereign state in the world freely separate from its country?
Several of them have been dreaming of their indepence, but they can't. Look at Dixie's country as an example :wink: . They wanted their independence and are still working with Spain to get it.

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NOBODY can prevent Taiwan's return!!

Post by msofchina » Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:29 am

As everyone knows,Taiwan is a part of China!
and it's the matter of China.

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Post by mikexiao » Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:30 am

Yes. It's the matter of China.It's nothing to do with you gringoes.

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Post by Danyet » Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:36 am

mikexiao wrote:Yes. It's the matter of China.It's nothing to do with you gringoes.
Well, I'm afraid that it is too late for that because it has become "our Matter".

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Post by MissLT » Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:54 am

mikexiao wrote:Yes. It's the matter of China.It's nothing to do with you gringoes.
Well what Bush does has nothing to do with you, but you still wanted to talk about what he does. So, why can't we talk about Taiwan and Mainland China? It's because we're with Taiwan, it's gotten on your nerves? :roll:

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Post by northernwolf » Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:54 am

netyugi wrote:
Unknownsu wrote:
netyugi wrote: I feel sory for you!
Taiwan isn't a nation, before, now and forever!
In 1949, GMT government gave way from mainland of China to Taiwan, and PRC established. But Taiwan is still a part of China, even it is not belong to PRC. Can you say that Taiwanese is not Chinese?
If communism is good thing, why not?
You feel sorry for me? And why's that?

So what if Taiwanese are Chinese? I'm Chinese, does that mean I have to live in China?

Is Taiwan currently part of China? The Taiwanese doesn't seem to think so.

Does China have control over Taiwan? Absolutely not!

Is communism a good thing? I don't think so and it seems more than half the world agrees with me.

Please, if you come here to contribute intelligent conversation, then by all means, speak your mind. But if you come here with a mind full of rehearsed patriotic slogans, then I advise you to get off your high patriotic horse and see the world through an unbiased eye. I understand this is a sensitive topic for most Chinese and Taiwanese. As for the Chinese, ask yourself, honestly, what do you personally gain if Taiwan returns to China?

1. I am sorry for you because you said Taiwan is a nation.

2. I don't think if someone is Chinese, then he must live in China.

3. Taiwan is a part of (Republic of) China! All of Taiwanese think so.

4. The same as above, (Republic of) China is controlling over Taiwan.

5. What communism do you think is not a good thing? I don't think the Chinese Communist Party is a really Communist Party. Do you know USSR? Even if it is not better than USA, it is as good as USA. And now it is capitalism, is it better than USSR?

6. You are correct, I cannot get any personally gain from it after Taiwan returns to China, as well as Hongkong and Macau come back to China. But China is our motherland, I love China is not means I love the Chinese Communist Party. Maybe you cannot understand this point.

I come here just for practising my english, and I am sorry my english isn't good enough.

You maybe missed what all I said is that Taiwan is still a part of China!
greatly support !!!I LOVE CHINA FOREVER!!

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Post by weenixbreath » Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:06 pm

I want this thing simple. If there is not a war, then the goverment will broke because deng xiao ping said before that if we don't get Taiwan then chinese people will create a new government which will have a great war between china and taiwan. Trust me, there will be a war because all of chinese is waitting for the day. the day we become more powerful powerful.... It's just a time condition. All we need to do is waitting the day coming...

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Post by Danyet » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:00 pm

What happened to all those Chinese that wanted a reform of their government, like the protesters at Tianeman? Have they all been squashed by Chinese tanks? There must be a lot of Chinese who are not stupid enough to start a war over Taiwan.

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Post by SleepyTear » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:26 am

Maybe I am not qualified enough to comment on this issue here. But I am Chinese, a high school student of China. I have read all the posts above. Personally, I do agree with some of the "Foreigners" coz I think they are learned<maybe...>, they know so many things!! :roll: For me, I even don't know exactly where New York is... :oops:

I think Tanwanese are Chinese. This is FACT. And Taiwan is part of China. Also FACT. You can't deny the history,which all high school students of China know well.The Taiwan issue's caused ultimately by the difference of political ground of two categories of Chinese. Why you "Foreigners" want to interfere is just a question of interest,right? It's undeniable.

As to the possiblity of a war, maybe there will be one.
It's normal, there are so many wars within China and Her people. Tanwan will definitely lose. What you " Foreigners" do is just useless, except arousing 1.3 billion people's hatred against you... :oops:

I am not an adult yet...so forgive my rudeness...

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Post by Danyet » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:21 pm

No one is denying that Taiwan was not originally part of China but for 50 years Taiwan has been free of Chinas opressive government. The question is: Why, after 50 years of freedom in Taiwan, should the world stand idle and let the corrupt government of China, one of the worlds leading violators of Human Rights, sieze control of Taiwan against their will??????????????

Only the most fanatical Chinese citizen can not see that his goverment has brainwashed him into a "war mentallity". You Chinese who speak of War over Taiwan had better be very, very careful because after your war is finished you are going to be very, very sorry people. You will have nothing!! .........But those "Leaders" who lead you into war will be relatively unscathed!

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Post by ANDYTAN » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:31 pm

violet wrote:
danyet wrote:I'll tell you what mikexiao, if the rest of the world cut your country off economically you would soon be begging to go to Taiwan.
Ohhhhh danyet! I have been deeply moved by your justice :cry: , until I saw this sentence :shock: . Why do you want other countries to cut China off? :evil: Don't you know that more than 1.3 billion people are living in China and in that case many of us (maybe I am included) would die in starving :cry: :cry: :cry: ? I don't think I could go to Taiwan, Because unlike the way Chinese mainland treats Taiwan, Taiwan couldn't allow us to go there freely, I'm sure of it. :roll:


Let's think about some questions before we draw a conclusion whether Taiwan should get its independence, okay? (Actually I hhave no idea which choice is better for Chinese and Chinese future, this is a too big matter, isn't it?)

1) Why don't other countries cut off China economically now that Communism is hated by so many people in the world?
2) Suppose Taiwan is not as rich as it now be, if Chinese mainland gives all the encouraging policy of working and investment to Taiwanese, as we now do, will they still want to be seperated from mainland?
3) Suppose Chinese mainland is a Capitalism and Taiwan is a Communism, if Taiwan government and people want to be independent, what will be other countries' reaction? Will Americans support Taiwan? Will Mainland admit it?
3) If Taiwan gets its independence without any resistance from mainland, later, another governer of a Chinese city (for example Shanghai) tables a proposal of this city's independence, or maybe half of the citizens in this city agree with the proposal, and of course the city can get support from US and Japan...If this really happen, is there any reason to object its separating from China?
4) If any district in China can freely separate, what will happen?
5) Can any district in US freely separate from the United States?
6) Can any district in any sovereign state in the world freely separate from its country?
...
Let me think over and bring up more questions soon. You guys keep on debating, please. :D :P
wow!! hi. violet.. it's ever so wonderful!!! :P i complete agree with you ..I object the taiwan separate from mainland !! in my heart !! i believe that taiwan's in a measure of china forever !!

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Post by ANDYTAN » Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:05 pm

[quote="danyet"]No one is denying that Taiwan was not originally part of China but for 50 years Taiwan has been free of Chinas opressive government. The question is: Why, after 50 years of freedom in Taiwan, should the world stand idle and let the corrupt government of China, one of the worlds leading violators of Human Rights, sieze control of Taiwan against their will??????????????

Only the most fanatical Chinese citizen can not see that his goverment has brainwashed him into a "war mentallity". You Chinese who speak of War over Taiwan had better be very, very careful because after your war is finished you are going to be very, very sorry people. You will have nothing!! .........But those "Leaders" who lead you into war will be relatively unscathed![/quote  NO! I DON'T agree with you .. who say Taiwan was not originally part of China but for 50 years !! :x who say china haven't Human Rights!! it's just you personly idea!! you..usa always have condemnation our china from everything!! even we right to do and you never to identify with us. I don't know if you ( usa ) have big problem with me and leading to bewilderment us in anything!! ( such as taiwan problem and china join in the WTO before and so on ) , I BElieve that the taiwan already liberated by mainland now if didn't you (usa) make gestures with taiwan.. as matter of fact . you should responsibility for our china's unification......

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Post by Danyet » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:02 am


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Post by SleepyTear » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:10 am

danyet wrote:You must live in a cave! It is not just me who knows of China's appauling human rights violations. Read these, there are hundreds more, similar.
I'm sorry. The websites you listed can't be opened. I don't know why. Can you copy some of the content for me? I wanna read them very much.

Not a government is perfect I think,or every government is corrupt.Don't you think so?

Maybe it has been a tradition formed in every Chinese citizen regarding Taiwan Problem that motherland's UNIFICATION is a big cause. Maybe it has been a kind of belief of us Chinese,especially Mainland People, dating from long long ago...

By the way, I dislike we Chinese speak here like madmen. Though patriotism is involved, you should say with reasons. Your words should be convincing? You understand?

Hope you all understand me :oops: My English is poor.

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Post by RL » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:15 am

it's so tired .
i've read these postes all above.
fifty fifty.
i don't want to comment such a topic.
it's very harmful, isn't it ?
let's stop it .discuss some other things.
ok ?

and i suggest ADMIN to this post.

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Post by Danyet » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:27 pm

SleepyTear wrote:
I'm sorry. The websites you listed can't be opened. I don't know why. Can you copy some of the content for me? I wanna read them very much.
I don't know why you can't open these website links. They open perfectly for me. I can tell you that China's government has blocked certain websites from her citizens in parts of China. Perhaps this is the case here.

Is anyone else having trouble opening those site???
Last edited by Danyet on Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Danyet » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:38 pm

OK!!! Here is the copy of the first link that I posted. It is a shame that you can't open it because it is also written in Chinese aswell as English.



http://www.hrichina.org/public/contents ... 5fid=26504

Press Advisory: Further Crackdown on Petitioner Mao Hengfeng and Others in Beijing and Shanghai

January 03, 2006
Human Rights in China (HRIC) has learned that a number of Shanghai petitioners have been detained in Beijing and Shanghai, with several being beaten and mistreated.

According to HRIC sources, on the afternoon of December 28, veteran petitioner Mao Hengfeng and several dozen other petitioners were detained in Beijing by police when they went to view the ceremonial lowering of the flag in Tiananmen Square. Mao and her two daughters, along with fellow petitioners Zhang Cuizhi and Zhang Xueying, were forcibly taken to Beijing's Tianhai Reception Center that evening, while the other petitioners were immediately put onto the next train back for Shanghai. Among the latter group, Sun Xicheng, He Guoguang and others were reportedly beaten by Shanghai “retriever” officials in charge of intercepting petitioners (jiefang renyuan). Sun suffered a concussion as a result of his beating.

According to information received by HRIC, Mao was reportedly dragged by her feet down a flight of stairs by three special police agents. She and her daughters, along with Zhang Cuizhi and Zhang Xueying, were forced to return to Shanghai by train on the evening of December 29. Attempts were made to contact Mao through her cellular phone, but communication was interrupted by a person identified as one of these “retriever” officials from Shanghai's Yangpu District.

Following her arrival in Shanghai on December 30, Mao immediately returned to Beijing with her daughters, but early on the morning of January 1 she was detained once again and forcibly returned to Shanghai, where she and her daughters were taken directly to the Yangpu District dispatch station. Mao's daughters were released that afternoon, but Mao remains under the illegal custody of the Daqiao neighborhood municipal office. When her husband telephoned the neighborhood office, an official surnamed Jiang reportedly told him that Mao would not be returning home for three or four more days.

In addition, sources told HRIC that on December 15, petitioners Zhou Xiudi, Chen Zonglai, Wu Yuping, Jin Huijun and others have been placed under criminal detention on charges of "disturbing public order" by Shanghai Hongkou public security authorities for their participation in a petition to the Shanghai municipal committee conference. On December 22, Shanghai petitioner Ma Yalian was also detained by local police and neighborhood committee members and held until December 28 without her family being allowed information of her whereabouts.


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Post by Danyet » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:47 pm

Here is the copy from the second link. It is a letter from the Director of the Asia Division of Human rights Watch addressed to president Bush asking for help concerning issues in China.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/11/16/china12043.htm



November 16, 2005

The Honorable George W. Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave., N.W.
Washington, DC 20500

Re: Your Trip to China November 19-20,2005

Dear Mr. President:

We write to urge that during your visit to China on November 19-20, 2005, you take up China’s dismal human rights record in all your meetings and public appearances. We appreciate the statements you made today in Tokyo about the need for China to allow more political freedoms and to increase political openness and the pace of reform. It is important that you place these issues at the top of the agenda during your meetings with President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao.

We appreciate the attention your administration has given to human rights issues such as religious freedom and the release of political prisoners in China. However, we are concerned that the human rights situation has fallen on the list of priorities in the U.S.-China bilateral relationship in recent years. We hope that your statements in Tokyo reflect a considered decision to refocus the relationship with China on human rights and pluralism.

The human rights situation in China continues to be dire and, in many respects, has worsened in recent months, with crackdowns on dissidents, human rights activists, lawyers, and journalists. While there had been high expectations for the administration of President Hu Jintao and Prime Minister Wen Jiabao, most Chinese have been disappointed with his lack of action on human rights. We urge you to ask President Hu and Prime Minister Wen what their specific commitments to human rights are and how and when they will be implemented.

Across China today, human rights abuses are fuelling rising social unrest. Indeed, China’s stability in the 21st century, and the role it plays in the international community, will depend in great measure on the extent to which it gives its people lawful, peaceful democratic outlets to express their opinions, pursue their aims, and create public accountability. Without the rule of law based on recognized human rights principles, even China’s economic progress will ultimately be fragile.

You have made democratization one of the foreign policy priorities of your presidency. While there have been some developments in village elections––punctuated by attacks on activists who threaten local communist party power bases (for example, when activist Lu Banglie was beaten in front of an international journalist on October 8)––there is no sign that the Chinese leadership is even considering national elections. While we do not suggest that elections can be organized overnight, there is no reason that China cannot begin planning for national elections. This is a subject that is almost never brought up by international leaders in face-to-face talks with the Chinese leadership. Yet no serious explanation has even been offered why China should be a singular exception to this most basic of principles.

The right to take part in the conduct of public affairs is widely recognized in international law, including the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, and the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. All these instruments make it clear that citizens have the right to vote and to be elected by universal and equal suffrage. As you said in your speech in Japan, this is not a western idea, it is universal, as demonstrated in the many democracies of Asia. We see no reason why more than one billion Chinese citizens should not have the elemental right to choose their leaders. This trip would be a good time to end the international silence on this subject.

This is a particularly important time to raise this subject, as last month the Chinese government issued a white paper, Building of Political Democracy in China, that makes it clear that China will remain a one-party state.

We also urge you to address China’s longstanding habit of releasing one or more political prisoners before or after important meetings. Although the release of a prisoner, especially one who should never have been imprisoned, is a welcome event, we urge that you recognize the gesture for what it is: a public relations stunt that does nothing to address China's continued willingness to imprison dissenters. Should a release or releases occur, we hope you will recognize the “revolving door” quality of China’s prisoner releases––for every prisoner released as a gift to a visiting dignitary, one or more others are then arrested––and insist that no new arrests be carried out to fill the emptied prison bed. We urge that you make this point publicly.

There are many other serious human rights issues that we also urge you to raise on your trip. Please see our letter of August 29, 2005, raising these concerns. We attach the letter here as an appendix.

Thank you for your consideration of these concerns.

Yours sincerely,

Brad Adams
Executive Director
Asia Division


August 29, 2005

The Honorable George W. Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20500

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Post by Danyet » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:01 pm

http://www.tibet.ca/panchenlama/






Who is the Panchen Lama?
Birthday: April 25, 1989
Age: 16
Born: Lhari, Tibet
Address: Unknown

The Panchen Lama was 6 years old when he and his parents were kidnapped from their home in Tibet by the Chinese government. He is the world's youngest political prisoner and he has been missing for over 6 years.

Panchen Lama is a religious title like Vice-President or Prime Minister that Tibetans give to the second greatest leader of Tibet. Panchen means "Great Scholar" and Lama is a word Tibetans use for a religious teacher. We believe that the Panchen Lama is the protector of all the world's living beings.

This all means that the boy in this picture will grow up to be a very powerful leader of Tibet and perhaps the world.

Why did the Chinese Government Kidnap The Panchen Lama and his Parents?
Tibet used to be its own country but China invaded it in 1949. After the Chinese took over, Tibetans in Tibet were no longer free or happy. China kidnapped the Panchen Lama, his parents and brother from their home in Tibet and are holding them under house arrest somewhere in China. We are still not sure where they are and hopefully through this web page we can spread the word about this boy and help him and his family.

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Post by ANDYTAN » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:08 pm

danyet wrote:
SleepyTear wrote:
I'm sorry. The websites you listed can't be opened. I don't know why. Can you copy some of the content for me? I wanna read them very much.
I don't know why you can't open these website links. They open perfectly for me. I can tell you that China's givernment has blocked certain websites from her citizens in parts of China. Perhaps this is the case here.

Is anyone else having trouble opening those site???
hi. danyet
you sent these website links indeed can't open in china... i try it so many time and fault of finally..i don't know whether the china's government would like to hide it .. but you can think about when have some bady news which influenced our country's visualize . in there I want to ask you what to do?? you would select close the website or let it which open to anyone see that .. i believe even in usa which it also impossible to appear ..right?? of course .. . due to I worked in foreign's company ..so I can see it which you sent out these website about the human's right..

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Post by justinlan » Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:37 am

Unknownsu wrote:Read the question correctly, guys. I did not ask who will win if there is an outbreak of war, I asked do you think war between these two nations will happen and what reasons do you have for believing so.
:shock: Well,the peace of world is the most important thing in our life all the time.However,dominion and economic benefit are very important to mainland China.So it never give up reoccupying Taiwan.If taiwan continues the independent policy,i am afraid that Mainland China will fire it when Mainland China becomes strong enough and thinks the opportunity is mature.That will be a tragedy to all chinese :( . Hoping this issue will become easier to solve.It of course should be solved by a peaceful way. :idea:

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Post by Danyet » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:09 pm

It appears that the Chinese Government is resticting the people of China access to information. So many people in Chine do not really know the true facts. We must somehow not allow this situation over Taiwan lead us to war but at the same time we must protect Taiwan from falling under the control of Chinese Government.

It will fall to us too help enlighten the average person in China or the consequences will be on us!

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Post by benluo » Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:49 am

mikexiao wrote:There are so many mistakes you make.
China mainland and Taiwan island is only separated by a narrow taiwan strait.Just like north Ireland and England.People's Repulic of China or Repulic of China are both China.It's very clear.Why you guys don't understand that this is only a historical problem.Just like Hongkong and Macao.

Democratic Progressive Party of Taiwan wants Taiwan to be independence doesn't mean all the Taiwan people want that.Maybe most of them want unify.But I know now is not a proper time but eventually.

China is a ruffian?Why you guys only think from the view of Taiwan instead of people in mainland.I know most of us support our government to avoid the independence.The 1.3billion people are not idiot.They know what is right what is false.Why you never listen to them?Doesn't that mean you are not impersonal?
Support! But i thing everyone has the right to describe the idae about the Taiwan and Mainland Chinda issue. if the payment for peace is war, then we will fight for it.

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Post by justinlan » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:46 am

danyet wrote:It appears that the Chinese Government is resticting the people of China access to information. So many people in Chine do not really know the true facts. We must somehow not allow this situation over Taiwan lead us to war but at the same time we must protect Taiwan from falling under the control of Chinese Government.

It will fall to us too help enlighten the average person in China or the consequences will be on us!
:arrow: Hi,I guess you just consider some issues just on your own side.you said,"to help enlighten the average person in China",so funny :roll: ,don't treat others as idiots.Today ,as the development of Internet,people in China know so many thing,don't guess chinese as aboriginals,please.you guys form U.S.A think china as an evil county,but ,don't forget that people from other countries think U.S.A as an arbitrary country since it always start wars here and there arbitrarily if there are benefits for it to pursue . :evil:
of course,there are many insufficiencies in China today,but not so terrible as you guys thought.Most people in China would like to work hard for the reunification of China ,and oppose foregin
interference. What's more ,people in China are not idiots, they have they own views,don't impose your idea on others.That is unfair. :roll:

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Post by justinlan » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:20 pm

what i want to iterate is that Taiwan is one part of China,there is only one China in the globe.Casting back history,you can find the answer of why people in China want to unify their country.Just to imagine,if your country are separated by some factors.what would you feel and what will you do.

Of course ,like most of people in China,I strongly support the reunification of China ,however, I oppose we solve the issue by a form of war.People Not matter from Mainland or Taiwan are relatives.Those arbitrary countries shouldn't interfere with others own issue.If the battle between Mainland and Taiwan breaks out,one of the contributed factors attributes to the interference of those so-called democratic countries.Just have a think ,the countries always interfere with issues of others but call themselves democratic.which point reflects democracy?To me,the so-called democracy is only for themselves.They always consider issues for others by their own way .But don't forget,others maybe don't like this "kindness" :)

Well, I just want to express my thinking and my feel as a normal chinese.I appologize if you think the opinions above make you uncomfortable. :wink: I don't mean it,just to discuss the debate.:wink:
Last edited by justinlan on Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Danyet » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:03 pm

Well let us just hope that most people in China are like you and don't want to "reunify" China by force. Because then it will be certain that Taiwan will stay as they are FREE. No one would volutarily join China!!!! :roll: :roll:

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Post by jasminefu623 » Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:25 am

For me, as a Chinese, I think Taiwan is a part of China, I don’t think Taiwan is can call as a country. If you look into the history, you will find that, Taiwan is a part of China since a long time ago, so why it should be separate from China? There are conflict between Taiwan a China is just because of the conflict between political groups. It’s the conflict between the National Party and the Communist Party, and I think this is the problem of the last generation it shouldn’t left to us. I don’t think there will be war between Taiwan and China, because the leaders of China are very mature, they know that war is not good to China’s economic and the life of people. Also I think that China is very friendly to Taiwan now, the only problem left is that the attitude of the leader of Taiwan. So if the attitude of the Taiwan president change, I think the situation will change, and the relationship between China and Taiwan will no longer tense, and Taiwan become a part of China will come true in the near future. That’s also what I hope, and the hope of a lot of Chinese and the people in Taiwan.

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Post by Danyet » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:31 am

jasminefu623 wrote: the only problem left is that the attitude of the leader of Taiwan. So if the attitude of the Taiwan president change, I think the situation will change, and the relationship between China and Taiwan will no longer tense, and Taiwan become a part of China
Oh? So if the attitude of the Taiwan leader changes everything will be OK? You mean if the Taiwan leader does as he is ordered, don't you? Yeah right! Then everything will be OK........sure!! The whole world should do as the Chinese leader says then we will alll live in peace.

That sounds like the typical bullies threat!!!

"OK guys, listen up! Everybody do as I say and nobody gets hurt, see!""

"You killed my brother, you dirty rat. I'm gonna get ya, see!" :roll:

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Post by funnyboy » Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:00 am

Unknownsu wrote:Read the question correctly, guys. I did not ask who will win if there is an outbreak of war, I asked do you think war between these two nations will happen and what reasons do you have for believing so.

Could any one explain what is nation , what 's the difference between country and nation .
I think u can bulid a country ,but can not bulid a nation.
FOR many years ,may be thousand years ,maybe a nation was born.

The Mainland and Taiwan have the same ancestor---HAN.

About more than 95% people living in China main land and Iland Tanwan are HAN .

If you want to know Taiwan ,you must know his history first.

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Post by funnyboy » Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:13 am

netyugi wrote:
Unknownsu wrote:
netyugi wrote: I feel sory for you!
Taiwan isn't a nation, before, now and forever!
In 1949, GMT government gave way from mainland of China to Taiwan, and PRC established. But Taiwan is still a part of China, even it is not belong to PRC. Can you say that Taiwanese is not Chinese?
If communism is good thing, why not?
You feel sorry for me? And why's that?

So what if Taiwanese are Chinese? I'm Chinese, does that mean I have to live in China?

Is Taiwan currently part of China? The Taiwanese doesn't seem to think so.

Does China have control over Taiwan? Absolutely not!

Is communism a good thing? I don't think so and it seems more than half the world agrees with me.

Please, if you come here to contribute intelligent conversation, then by all means, speak your mind. But if you come here with a mind full of rehearsed patriotic slogans, then I advise you to get off your high patriotic horse and see the world through an unbiased eye. I understand this is a sensitive topic for most Chinese and Taiwanese. As for the Chinese, ask yourself, honestly, what do you personally gain if Taiwan returns to China?

1. I am sorry for you because you said Taiwan is a nation.

2. I don't think if someone is Chinese, then he must live in China.

3. Taiwan is a part of (Republic of) China! All of Taiwanese think so.

4. The same as above, (Republic of) China is controlling over Taiwan.

5. What communism do you think is not a good thing? I don't think the Chinese Communist Party is a really Communist Party. Do you know USSR? Even if it is not better than USA, it is as good as USA. And now it is capitalism, is it better than USSR?

6. You are correct, I cannot get any personally gain from it after Taiwan returns to China, as well as Hongkong and Macau come back to China. But China is our motherland, I love China is not means I love the Chinese Communist Party. Maybe you cannot understand this point.

I come here just for practising my english, and I am sorry my english isn't good enough.

You maybe missed what all I said is that Taiwan is still a part of China!
It is hard to say ,maybe only chinese can understand .

I support u ,
USA : I am bigger,so I am speaker. Iraq is a good example.

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Post by justinlan » Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:17 am

funnyboy wrote: USA : I am bigger,so I am speaker. Iraq is a good example.
I do agree with you! 8)

roysnow
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no end in the debate

Post by roysnow » Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:04 am

maybe chinese has something tradittional with their "face".
in the dealing with the international affair ,our country is very private like others ,but they pretend to be fair but at the matter of fact .the interest is the main reason to pursue.

The debate is very funny

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MissLT
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Post by MissLT » Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:25 am

funnyboy wrote:
USA : I am bigger,so I am speaker. Iraq is a good example.
Mainland China: I am bigger, so I speak. Taiwan will soon be an Iraq example.

roysnow
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don't lost the humanity and hope for the united country

Post by roysnow » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:46 am

TaiWan couldn't be identical with the Iraq .
Let the history prove it

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MissLT
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Re: don't lost the humanity and hope for the united country

Post by MissLT » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:56 am

roysnow wrote:TaiWan couldn't be identical with the Iraq .
Let the history prove it
If Mainland China leaves Taiwan alone, it would not an Iraq example.

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Arale
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Post by Arale » Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:25 am

Sorry but we should stop this topic here.

_Arale_

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