i guess i don't understand it clearly... do i?

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Tora
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i guess i don't understand it clearly... do i?

Postby Tora » Tue May 09, 2006 5:22 pm

This Week in History
1945: GERMANY SURRENDERS TO ALLIED FORCES
In 1945, Germany signed an unconditional surrender to the Allied forces led by Great Britain and the U.S.A. Adolph Hitler, the leader of Germany under Nazi rule, is believed to have committed suicide one week earlier when it became clear that his forces could not win the war. In Asia, fighting between the Allied forces and Japan continued for another four months until Japan also surrendered and the Second World War was finally over.


:shock: well well well! not even mentioning Soviet Union! I'm puzzled! actually it was Russians who brought piece and gave peoples' lives to the holy victory!
try to prove me wrong!

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Postby MissLT » Fri May 12, 2006 9:33 pm

Funny how there's an AND and you only highlighted USA...... :?

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Postby Danyet » Fri May 12, 2006 11:39 pm

While it is true that Russia played a big part in the War and tied up valuable German resources. Russia was only fighting for HER OWN survival while Britain, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada began fighting to DEFEND OTHER countries against Hitler's Germany. These Allied countries sent there men to die for others, to die protecting Europe! Hitler had no plans to attack Britain until after the British led the revolt against him.

While we acknowlege the 20 million Russians killed in the war, we also keep in mind that Stalin would never have joined the fight to save Europe if Germany had not attacked Russia first!

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Re: i guess i don't understand it clearly... do i?

Postby Danyet » Fri May 12, 2006 11:52 pm

Tora wrote:the Allied forces led by Great Britain and the U.S.A.

"Allied Forces" refers to all the countries that were allied under the British/US led coalition. Russia was under their own command acting in their own interest.

Do not forget that after the war Russia took half of Germany and half of Berlin and built the Berlin Wall, shooting any one who tried to escape to West Berlin. Must I post the pictures of bodies hanging in the barbed wire to jog your memory?

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Postby Hardi » Sat May 13, 2006 6:49 am

Maybe it's because German surrender twice. If I remember right then on 8 mai. to USA and Britain and on 9 mai. when russian arrive, then to russian too... Anyway I don't wanna prove that you are wrong.. Because it's pointless, but you are not 100% right.

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Postby Tora » Sat May 13, 2006 7:28 am

LennyeTran wrote:Funny how there's an AND and you only highlighted USA...... :?


USA was the only country among the above mentioned where were no figthing on the territory where the common people lived... that's why it's a bit different from the other... it had it's forces in north africa europe and definitely was fighting agains hitler's allies in the east. that's why...

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Postby Tora » Sat May 13, 2006 7:40 am

danyet wrote:While it is true that Russia played a big part in the War and tied up valuable German resources. Russia was only fighting for HER OWN survival while Britain, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada began fighting to DEFEND OTHER countries against Hitler's Germany. These Allied countries sent there men to die for others, to die protecting Europe! Hitler had no plans to attack Britain until after the British led the revolt against him.

While we acknowlege the 20 million Russians killed in the war, we also keep in mind that Stalin would never have joined the fight to save Europe if Germany had not attacked Russia first!


it's hard and has no sense to imagine what could hapen if... i'm talking about enormous human deaths... the army fighting for soviet union independence was non-professional mostly... you are right, more than 20 million dead and over 5 million are not found yet... after 61 years grandchildren of those who brought freedom to them still don't know where their heroes are beried.
I'm not talking about stalin, there are statements in soviet union documents regarding to the first days of war telling us about devastating hitler's intention... but stalin payed no attention to it...
surely i don't lower the paricipation of allied forces in the ww2 but i emphasize that soviet union army started the campaign in 1939 in mongolia against japanese forces. and then in 1945 fighting in the europe territory on their way to berlin...
i just say that winning the war was not only a business of allied forces, it could happen only with combining forces of all the armies, because it was not easy to fight for germany in two opposite directions!

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Re: i guess i don't understand it clearly... do i?

Postby Tora » Sat May 13, 2006 7:42 am

danyet wrote:
Tora wrote:the Allied forces led by Great Britain and the U.S.A.

"Allied Forces" refers to all the countries that were allied under the British/US led coalition. Russia was under their own command acting in their own interest.

Do not forget that after the war Russia took half of Germany and half of Berlin and built the Berlin Wall, shooting any one who tried to escape to West Berlin. Must I post the pictures of bodies hanging in the barbed wire to jog your memory?


you don't have to! i have good memory, thank you!
i'm talking about the years of the war here, not about what happened after. i'm not trying to defend the soviet union ruling here... i regret if you think that way...

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Postby Tora » Sat May 13, 2006 7:49 am

Hardi wrote:Maybe it's because German surrender twice. If I remember right then on 8 mai. to USA and Britain and on 9 mai. when russian arrive, then to russian too... Anyway I don't wanna prove that you are wrong.. Because it's pointless, but you are not 100% right.


well, i know that 'story' concerning signing the document with and without soviet union... for me the victory day is the most important holiday as for me it's a day when we celebrate the courage and grandeur of united russian peoples! mourn for those who didn't return back and bless the veterans though year by year the amount of them is less... the people who were involved in not wise and forseen politics suffered a lot. they deserved the glory...
not stalin and all the top are praised here.

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Postby MissLT » Sat May 13, 2006 8:02 am

Tora wrote:
USA was the only country among the above mentioned where were no figthing on the territory where the common people lived... that's why it's a bit different from the other... it had it's forces in north africa europe and definitely was fighting agains hitler's allies in the east. that's why...

Does it matter? If the US only mentioned itself in this war, then I could see your point of highlighting it. But there is an AND, which it means the US wasn't alone in this war.

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Postby Tora » Sat May 13, 2006 8:16 am

LennyeTran wrote:
Tora wrote:
USA was the only country among the above mentioned where were no figthing on the territory where the common people lived... that's why it's a bit different from the other... it had it's forces in north africa europe and definitely was fighting agains hitler's allies in the east. that's why...

Does it matter? If the US only mentioned itself in this war, then I could see your point of highlighting it. But there is an AND, which it means the US wasn't alone in this war.


Lennye, i compare it to what hitler's army did here. the anger to russian was incrediable, killing innocent children and women, old people, burn to ashes setllements, ruined architecture in the most beautiful russian towns, years of famine in leningrad, when people were boiling their letherbelts to have something to eat! it does matter to me!
I appereciate that we still have a chance to know and learn about the war from the participants and the books written by them and movies based on real events and shot by those who were fighting all the terrifying years of war.
I was just asking to say a word of prasing soviet union forces...

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Re: i guess i don't understand it clearly... do i?

Postby Tora » Sat May 13, 2006 8:21 am

danyet wrote:
Tora wrote:the Allied forces led by Great Britain and the U.S.A.

"Allied Forces" refers to all the countries that were allied under the British/US led coalition. Russia was under their own command acting in their own interest.

Must I post the pictures of bodies hanging in the barbed wire to jog your memory?


should i post the photos of people in leningrad frozen to death while standing in a queue for their small piece of bread, that would be stolen by street thieves just after they get it?

generations should keep in mind the damage of every strong belief - nazis or communism... both of them are wrong. no lives must be threaten by political ambitions as it's clearly seen what consequences may follow... ww2 is a real evidence of how not to be! just keep in mind!

i suppose there is no sence in sharing these kind of photos with each other, danyet... why trying to frighten each other?.. Let's do not...
Last edited by Tora on Sat May 13, 2006 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby MissLT » Sat May 13, 2006 8:25 am

Then by all means I don't think the document was wrong since it said, Allied forces led by Great Britain and the U.S.A. Russia wasn't part of the allied forces like Danyet said. I thought it was in history. The document didn't mention about Russia and it's wrong, but it wasn't wrong to say Russia wasn't part of the allied forces to my understanding.

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Postby Tora » Sat May 13, 2006 8:28 am

LennyeTran wrote:The document didn't mention about Russia and it's wrong, but it wasn't wrong to say Russia wasn't part of the allied forces to my understanding.


it wasn't wrong and i didn't want to say that russia was among allied forces. i meant only not mentioning soviet union at all! that's all. so i hope the misconception is determined. i fell sorry for my poor english that can't transform clearly what i am thinking about, Lennye.

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Postby MissLT » Sat May 13, 2006 8:36 am

Oh, okay. You said prove you wrong, so I thought... Never mind, then. :wink:

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Postby Danyet » Sat May 13, 2006 2:39 pm

I will concede that it is true that on many occasions that spokesmen in the USA say things that lead people to believe that the USA single handedly one the war on their own. This is portrayed in many hollywood movies also. As a matter of a fact this attitude is one of my "pet peeves" about the USA. But I do not think that your example is a good one this time Tora.

I, for one am well aware of the sacrifices made by the Russian people, soldiers and citizens alike, who gave and suffered far more than their share in order to get rid of the Nazi menace. Some historians say that the Allies may have been defeated by Germany if it was not for the contribution and effort from Russia.

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Postby MissLT » Sat May 13, 2006 5:21 pm

danyet wrote:Some historians say that the Allies may have been defeated by Germany if it was not for the contribution and effort from Russia.

I learned this part in history class.

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Postby Tora » Sat May 13, 2006 6:16 pm

danyet wrote:I will concede that it is true that on many occasions that spokesmen in the USA say things that lead people to believe that the USA single handedly one the war on their own. This is portrayed in many hollywood movies also. As a matter of a fact this attitude is one of my "pet peeves" about the USA. But I do not think that your example is a good one this time Tora.

I, for one am well aware of the sacrifices made by the Russian people, soldiers and citizens alike, who gave and suffered far more than their share in order to get rid of the Nazi menace. Some historians say that the Allies may have been defeated by Germany if it was not for the contribution and effort from Russia.


i am not good at making examples at all, so you will forgive me. the second part of your post i liked a lot! good enough that you share (even a bit) my opinion.


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