future of EU

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LadyMacbeth
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future of EU

Post by LadyMacbeth » Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:23 am


Admiral

Post by Admiral » Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:08 am

I find it gosh Germans don't want turkeys to be in Germany because they have racist feelings towards turkeys. What Merkel said etc. only mirrors this great racist feeling.
Geografically and similarity spoken, I don't think turkey should go to EU, not because I am racist feeling, only because (if you look on the map) turkey rather belongs to Asia than to Europe.
If Russia is not Europe then Turkey shouldn't be Europe, neither.

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istattack
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Post by istattack » Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:53 am

you are wrong.Turkey have to be in EU.becaese EU needs Turkey but doesn't need Russia.everybody knows that germany has racist feelings.remember *Ottoman*do u know about that??Ottoman was the most compassionate empire in the world...but now look at these countries..ı hope you will understand me ok.see you again...

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feanor
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Post by feanor » Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:26 pm

techincally, eu is already getting what he needs from turkey. turkey is the only country who signed for customs union in the mid 1990s and opened its customs for eu products without being an eu member. i guess no need to say that this caused our economy collapsed.

it is an obvious fact that eu will not accept turkey's membership (because of being asian, muslim, population...). but also it is a more obvious fact that eu needs turkey by his side. today it seems that negotiations keep going for turkey's membership but indeed this is just a political game for interfering turkey's interior and national policy and making turkey stand by his side. you cant even imagine what compensations they demand us in the name of negotiations for eu.

Admiral

Post by Admiral » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:14 pm

but Germans really don't like Turkish people. My friends all say: "Stay out of their way, they are bad people." I don't agree but they really say.

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feanor
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Post by feanor » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:54 pm

and here we dont have an issue of how to make germans love us.. all nations have some prejudices against some other nations caused by various reasons.

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MissLT
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Post by MissLT » Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:16 pm

istattack wrote:you are wrong.Turkey have to be in EU.becaese EU needs Turkey but doesn't need Russia.everybody knows that germany has racist feelings.remember *Ottoman*do u know about that??Ottoman was the most compassionate empire in the world...but now look at these countries..ı hope you will understand me ok.see you again...
the most compassionate empire in conquer to expand their land with swords or making peace? :?

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feanor
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Post by feanor » Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:28 pm

can u give me an example from history about an empire that is unwilling to expand its lands? and if ottoman was not compassionate, now more than half of the world would be muslim and speaking ottoman language.

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istattack
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Post by istattack » Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:22 am

fenor,ı share in your idea.but it is not important to be the lord of the world for Ottoman.they just wanted to spread their religion over the world but,they did not do that with sword like Roma Empire.because they knew that thw sword could not address to people's heart.god bless you byees.

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MissLT
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Post by MissLT » Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:23 pm

feanor wrote:can u give me an example from history about an empire that is unwilling to expand its lands? and if ottoman was not compassionate, now more than half of the world would be muslim and speaking ottoman language.
You are twisting history right now. They LOST the fight and were forced to shrink their territory.

Admiral

Post by Admiral » Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:27 pm

racism is not good, really

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feanor
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Post by feanor » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:48 pm

LennyeTran wrote:You are twisting history right now. They LOST the fight and were forced to shrink their territory.
what r u talking about? of course they lost, this is why we call it history. every empire had lost and everyone will lost one day.
but it seemed to me that u have no idea about how the ottoman system worked in the lands they conquered. i meant this.

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MissLT
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Post by MissLT » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:32 pm

One example,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Until the late 19th century, the Armenians were referred to as millet-i sadika (loyal nation) by the Ottomans.[citation needed] However, unlike Muslim citizens, Armenians, Greeks, other Christians, Jews, and other minorities, were subject to laws which gave them fewer legal rights and they were subject to numerous limitations in legal rights in the empire: Armenians were barred from serving in the military (in its stead, forced to pay an exemption tax), their testimony in Islamic courts was inadmissible against Muslims, were not allowed to bear arms, were heavily taxed and treated overall as second-class citizens.[2] As the largest minority present in the Ottoman Empire, Armenians were in effect, infidels in the eyes of Muslims, as described by British ethnographer William Ramsay: (copied)

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MissLT
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Post by MissLT » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:35 pm

Anyway, I think this could be considered as history or politics talk, so there's no need to go on since the new rule has been established.

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feanor
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Post by feanor » Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:25 am

LennyeTran wrote:One example,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Until the late 19th century, the Armenians were referred to as millet-i sadika (loyal nation) by the Ottomans.[citation needed] However, unlike Muslim citizens, Armenians, Greeks, other Christians, Jews, and other minorities, were subject to laws which gave them fewer legal rights and they were subject to numerous limitations in legal rights in the empire: Armenians were barred from serving in the military (in its stead, forced to pay an exemption tax), their testimony in Islamic courts was inadmissible against Muslims, were not allowed to bear arms, were heavily taxed and treated overall as second-class citizens.[2] As the largest minority present in the Ottoman Empire, Armenians were in effect, infidels in the eyes of Muslims, as described by British ethnographer William Ramsay: (copied)
ok, i see, and when our topic is this so-called genocide, it will be an extremely political talk.
i dont mean to contradict your rules but just to notify you and anybody who reads these

http://www.anarmenianmyth.com/
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/
http://www.armenianreality.com/armenian ... carthy.htm

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MissLT
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Post by MissLT » Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:55 pm

There's a topic about this whole thing at this site. You can read it to see how people responded and remain on your side if you wanted to.

http://www.englishforums.com/English/Ar ... r/Post.htm

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Post by wllsp » Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:02 pm

Admiral wrote:I find it gosh Germans don't want turkeys to be in Germany because they have racist feelings towards turkeys. What Merkel said etc. only mirrors this great racist feeling.
I disagree. To me it means that Turkey is just not suitable right now for joining the EU. There are lots of unresolved problems surrounding this issue and it would be incorrect to narrow down all of them simply to racism.
Admiral wrote: Geografically and similarity spoken, I don't think turkey should go to EU, not because I am racist feeling, only because (if you look on the map) turkey rather belongs to Asia than to Europe.
If Russia is not Europe then Turkey shouldn't be Europe, neither.
Interestingly, Cyprus is in Asia, but it is a EU member. If Turkey were a prosperous stable state like Cyprus most european leaders would ignore the fact that it is rather an asian country.

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Post by istattack » Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:47 pm

Feanor, I think EU is trying to prove that EU is christian union.bye the way France put the Armenian Genocide(so-called) to a veto,and ıt was accepted in their parliament.this is the first step to actualize their egregious aspiration.Armenians says 'we are associate'but France is still trying the world to accept a frivolity: Armenian Genocide(so-called)(!).
A French historian became Turkish citizen.Did you ask yourself why???because;he coluld not stand these fable anymore.and these pictures which is about killed Armenians(!)were taken by Armenians.they are not Armenians.they are Turks!!!please don not believe everything.This is accepted by all the historians.see you byees

Admiral

Post by Admiral » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:14 pm

wllsp wrote:I disagree. To me it means that Turkey is just not suitable right now for joining the EU. There are lots of unresolved problems surrounding this issue and it would be incorrect to narrow down all of them simply to racism.
Turkey has tried many years to get into EU. Ok, the thing with Cyprus is hard but if Turkey allows Cprus ships into its harbours I don't see other disadvantages.

I also guess like istattack thatEU wants itself to be a Christian country instead of a multireligious country. For example in Germany they forbid muslim teachers to wear headscarf, I don't see the reason.

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feanor
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Post by feanor » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:58 pm

istattack wrote:
A French historian became Turkish citizen.Did you ask yourself why???because;he coluld not stand these fable anymore.and these pictures which is about killed Armenians(!)were taken by Armenians.they are not Armenians.they are Turks!!!please don not believe everything.This is accepted by all the historians.see you byees
you misunderstood it. they are all turkish people and it is writthen under each picture who they are
Last edited by feanor on Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

LadyMacbeth
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Turkey in EU

Post by LadyMacbeth » Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:01 pm

Well... will it change anything at all?
I usually read a lot of things (on the Net too). And my immpression is that noone in Europe cares about EU at all (EU representatives including).
What I can also notice is that less important organisations are copying things from the bigger ones. Thus EU seems to me got drowned into the flood of bigger international networks. Some days ago I saw a big poster of some international organisations that are carrying help to impoverished people. EU was one of them.
:oops: :oops: :oops:
Do you have similar observations?
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Cheers,
LM.

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Post by wllsp » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:50 pm

Admiral wrote: I also guess like istattack thatEU wants itself to be a Christian country instead of a multireligious country.
I think you are right about that. Moreover, it is not a bad idea for the EU to be mainly christian.

For example, here is Russia we have lot of nations living together side by side. Some of them practice Islam, some Christianity. And from my experience we regularily have religious conflicts between people.

As far as I understand it just means two things. First, there is no way to avoid all religious conflicts whatever the goverment does. Second, as it is difficult to handle tensions between religios then it is quite logical to object to creating multireligious union. Is a sensible approach.

LadyMacbeth
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hello:)

Post by LadyMacbeth » Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:47 pm

In my opinion it isn't too possible to build multi religious union unless we would find something that would unite Europe much more than things that have been always dividing it (historical anymosities, wars, languages, different political ideologies). We would have to think about business and money. Is Europe able to do it?
We should try at least.
Eastern Europe has also some advantages. First is healthier air. You can laugh but I know what I am writing. All industry has been ruined here since the communism collapse so we live in much healthier environment than people in dirty West.
Of course thus many people don't have food cause they are jobless but our politicians have always been blind for needs of their societies. It is also historical difference between West and East.
The last care too little about material world, business, technological progress, GOOD education. They concentrate too much on power and money itself, they like imposing crazy things on other people.
It is much more than religion. It is quite different mentality. Is it possible to build any real union in such conditions?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

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Post by jeffcox » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:11 pm

Nobody entered Europe for international social reasons.

Europe is a political arena. Governmental interests are at the heart of it. Each government has the responsibility to promote and protect its the interests of its own citizens first and foremost. As no country is socially perfect, those internal interests will always be stronger.

You will not prevent conflicts between two coutries who have different interests, but you can create a place where dialogue can be built. For this, the European Community has a very important role to play.

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Europe - network of problems...

Post by LadyMacbeth » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:12 pm

Each government has the responsibility to promote and protect its the interests of its own citizens first and foremost.
Well ...I would arhue at this place. Still some governemnts care about THEIR own interests. And interest of government is taking taxes to have money for their salaries:(. Some bad governments don't care about anything else, I am afraid:(

you can create a place where dialogue can be built. For this, the European Community has a very important role to play.
Do you really believe we can build any dialague in Europe?
Thus you would have to find a way to unite two different parts of this divided continent.
I mean Europe. You would have to find a way how to unite east and west. It is a very difficult task when you are thinking about it seriously.
People in the west and east have different mentalities. Their mentality has been shaped throughout many centuries.
How could you change west according to western pattern? How to make western people eastern like?

Maybe the core of the problem is that US is a multi national couldron but united around money. These people are productive, competitive. Eastern people aren't too productive cause they don't understand free market. All they know is power and stick above their heads. Without these things they will fall over the production-line rather than will be product any innovations.
Plus if you want to see them working hard you have to pay them honestly. They are always paid unfair.

What chances can you see then for uniting east and west?
I am very interested to know all opinions.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Cheers,
LM

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some little corrections of my text above:)

Post by LadyMacbeth » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:23 pm

1.argue
2.still some governments care only about THEIR own interests
3.How could you change west according to eastern pattern?
4.they will fall over the production-line rather than will product any innovations.

thanks for reading:)
LM

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Post by jeffcox » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:59 am

Hi LadyMacbeth,

I say that the EC is a place for dialogue. Without that, there could never be any peace. People with different beliefs, customs and cultures must meet to dialogue; where does the tollerance and understanding come from if you don't do this?

Of course, there are many problems. They will not cease to exist. Problems are not resolved overnight. They take generations, centuries... or even longer. However, they must be resolved by dialogue. Without dialogue, there would only ever be ignorance, misunderstanding or all out war.

All governments have their own interests at heart. That's what they exist for. A government represents its people. The people demand improvements within their own countries. They may demand improvements in other countries too, but not at a great expense to them.

When you go to vote, you don't vote for the candidate who achieved nothing for his own country, do you?

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hello:)

Post by LadyMacbeth » Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:07 pm

Hello in this thread,
I say that the EC is a place for dialogue. Without that, there could never be any peace. People with different beliefs, customs and cultures must meet to dialogue; where does the tollerance and understanding come from if you don't do this?
Well... I like you ery much. You are so good-hearted.
But are we really here to discuss anything? Really?
What I can see (I have been writing here for about 2 years) is that people all over the world put here many irrelevant ideas about everything in order to improve their English.
What is the result of this discussion?
Few people surely have picked up here some new words and owe to Englishclub.com better understanding of some problems. That's obvious.

But another current news is that one of latest Englishclub ideas is banning all discussions on politics and religion:(.
What is left for us then?
Love of course. Money and sex too (or sex and money).
Family. Culture. Entertainment. Job. School. Food. holidays. pasttimes.
However, they must be resolved by dialogue. Without dialogue, there would only ever be ignorance, misunderstanding or all out war.
Well... as we can know from history not all problems can be solved by dialogue or building even higher wall:(. Sometimes people just crave for war and get it:(
Ability of dialogue and skill of discussing are attributes of philosophers. Majority of people resemble rather wild animals than philosophers who loved rather thinking than waging wars.
A government represents its people.
Not all governments. Some governments represent...themselves. Their own interests.
Mostly becauese some societies are far from ideas of what democracy is or should be. I mean citizens of these countries simply haven't been educated about democracy during history lessons. Or during other appropriate lessons.
When you go to vote, you don't vote for the candidate who achieved nothing for his own country, do you?
Well... great remark. I will go and vote for the prettiest and the smartest one. Why? Because truly speaking I don't believe he or she will care about my problems after his/her victory. He will be too busy with his new... salary. And what is my problem at this point (doubtful hahaha) - well...truly speaking I would change it at once.

Isn't it ironic? :wink:
Yes I think...
A little too ironic...
I really do think :(

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Re: hello:)

Post by Rach » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:33 am

Hi LadyMacbeth,
LadyMacbeth wrote:I mean Europe. You would have to find a way how to unite east and west. It is a very difficult task when you are thinking about it seriously.
People in the west and east have different mentalities.
I think in the western countries of the EU there are huuuuuge differences of mentality, too, I don't think the mentality of Russians for example is so much more different that the mentality of an Italian and someone from England or Poland?
But are we really here to discuss anything? Really?
What I can see (I have been writing here for about 2 years) is that people all over the world put here many irrelevant ideas about everything in order to improve their English.
Hopefully the guys in Brussels who discuss the issues of the future EU are a bit more "reasonable" and open for dialogue than a bunch of ESL-students from all over the world ;-).

I'm not so pessimistic about the future of the EU, I still think it's a great idea (unfortunately my country isn't part of it). It makes a lot of things easier, for the economics, finding a job etc. Of course there are disadvantages, too, but I don't think different mentalities are part of them.

LadyMacbeth
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time

Post by LadyMacbeth » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:35 pm

Hello:)
I think in the western countries of the EU there are huuuuuge differences of mentality, too, I don't think the mentality of Russians for example is so much more different that the mentality of an Italian and someone from England or Poland?
Well... I think mentality is one think and general attitude towards earning money and producting goods is another problem. (or still the same - I don't know).

It is however interesting that the same people who aren't able to crawl into assembly line in their netive country (which lies somewhere in Eastern Europe - lets say) work so hard in western supermarkets that are being permametly built everywhere around here.
Why?
When I will say "do it!" - noone will obey it in proper manner. When someone from the west will tell the same (for even smaller salary) the same person will go and do it!
What a psychological puzzle you have to admit.

Another thing is that Eastern Europe has been totally industrially destroyed since the end of communism.
The question WHY is also a very complicated one.
I don't think I am able to answer it. Maybe partly again. Probably it went - communism was bad, we are poor, we need to be richer fast. And instead of building new things people destroyed the old ones but built anything new on their place:(
I'm not so pessimistic about the future of the EU, I still think it's a great idea (unfortunately my country isn't part of it). It makes a lot of things easier, for the economics, finding a job etc. Of course there are disadvantages, too, but I don't think different mentalities are part of them.
I think thinking about EU in positive way nowadays can be nothing more but another illusion for poorer countries. Of course we are helped by EU but in most of cases the help isn't fairly diveded here (my opinion). There are also many needs but lots of people who rule here don't travel too far and they aren't too sophisticated at all so they don't need any ...needs to take any money. Besides they aren't able to take them. And that is a real tragedy.

Switzerland is a country of banks thus they want to be far from all political influences. Many people around the world leave money in their banks - they could be scared of being persecuted in case of any political drifts.

Thus we conclude that being apolitical is also an element of politics :wink:
But noone never knows where some discussions can lead us to... :wink:
regards,
LM

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ps.

Post by LadyMacbeth » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:52 pm

I have to correct some of my language errors here cause I don't like them so much :evil: :evil: :evil:
The ones below are the worst ones:

1. I think mentality is one thing
2. who aren't able to crawl into assembly line in their native country
3.so they don't have any ...needs to take any money.

Thank you for your attention :)
LM

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Re: time

Post by Rach » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:24 am

ReHi :)
LadyMacbeth wrote:Another thing is that Eastern Europe has been totally industrially destroyed since the end of communism.
Yeah, there must be big problems since the end of communism. But don't you think the outlook to become part of the EU could give to those countries a strong incentive to get ahead in their economics, possibility of education, social matters etc? I don't know a lot about the eastern countries, but as far as I know the baltic countries really made a great development in all of those issues in a very short period of time, and they had communism, too. Or Turkey, they want to become part of the EU very badly and it's incredible like they increased their economics in only a few years. They are really interested in getting their things done. And the EU of course can benefit from those increases, too. I think it's a great thing the EU gives a chance to those countries like they did recently with Romania and Bulgaria.
Switzerland is a country of banks thus they want to be far from all political influences. Many people around the world leave money in their banks - they could be scared of being persecuted in case of any political drifts.

Oh yes, perhaps they should be scared ;). You know in Switzerland it's exactly the same way like in all other countries, a handful of guys make the decisions and own the big money ;).
Thus we conclude that being apolitical is also an element of politics :wink:
But noone never knows where some discussions can lead us to... :wink:
*lol* yes, we're getting pretty political for being non-political;-). But I'm really not interested in politics, no, I'm not!*lol*

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Post by Misi » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:41 am

In my opinion Turkey with fresh muslim blood would be very useful for old europe as a cheap labour force. As well as a lot of turkish soldiers can be useful as helpers in such hot points as Iraq.

Admiral

Post by Admiral » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:22 am

yeah, and turkish girls look very good

LadyMacbeth
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hehe

Post by LadyMacbeth » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:11 pm

Hello:)
Yeah, there must be big problems since the end of communism. But don't you think the outlook to become part of the EU could give to those countries a strong incentive to get ahead in their economics, possibility of education, social matters etc? I don't know a lot about the eastern countries, but as far as I know the baltic countries really made a great development in all of those issues in a very short period of time, and they had communism, too. Or Turkey, they want to become part of the EU very badly and it's incredible like they increased their economics in only a few years. They are really interested in getting their things done. And the EU of course can benefit from those increases, too. I think it's a great thing the EU gives a chance to those countries like they did recently with Romania and Bulgaria.
Erh.... I think ( I THINK!!!) that these equal chances is just another slogan. Of course cheap labour force is the most important factor of futher widening of EU. And something more. This wonderful, cute psychological aspect for all eastern people who live in the east and for all eastern people who live in the West that somehow it happened that we are one, big family again. Specially Europe is great in creating unique, familiar atmoshere whatever they bubble and wherever they bubble their bubbles :(

So I think it is more about psychological trick than about anything else :( Some money of course but mostly for farmers and the poorest ones (in the other case you could never ever guess who is recognised here as the poorest one :( ).

Well... noone ever promised Poland would be another Switzerland one day. Though in facts more and more banks have being raised recently. Specially strange, virtual banks - I suppose in case of many of them money you want to take out of must be printed by your personal printed out of computer screen or I don't know where they are kept??? You know ...this kind of mess... and recently I discovered something REALLY interesting. Let me know if you want to read it. Making a long story short it is a thing about how it pays more in Poland to go and pay in bank than in post office. I think it must be another Polish world wide phenomena, mustn't it?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

So concluding - EU needs healthier food thus they care about farmers and some the poorest of the poor (lets say) cause they want to go into heaven after their death.
It seems to me they also care about other branches here and there but mostly to earn some money than spend them here. And somehow they succeed what is also really interesting but seems to be toally unseen by majority of people here (their bad luck I am afraid) :(

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Final conclusion of this thread - go and watch the Monty Python sketch bragging that I put intojokes section some days ago. It is about how people who rule in Eastern Europe behave when talking about politics. For them it is only the easiest way to stuff their own pockets with or without any revolution. Unlike in Switzerland and other western countries. If we don't change this thinking we will never change anything here cause people who rule impose many things on society here and they have only one aim in it - their own money.

See you soon,
LM

LadyMacbeth
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one little correction of my post above

Post by LadyMacbeth » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:15 pm

money you want to take out of must be printed by your personal printer out of computer screen

LadyMacbeth
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two other valid corrections

Post by LadyMacbeth » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:19 pm

1. more and more banks have been raised recently.

2. it pays less in Poland to go and pay in bank than in post office.


:)

LadyMacbeth
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ps.

Post by LadyMacbeth » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:21 pm

sorry it pays MORE I wanted to write having in mind that you pay LESS then.

Ufffffff..... :)

Rach
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Re: hehe

Post by Rach » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:06 am

Dear LadyMacbeth, what are you expecting of the EU and the western countries to do? You're accusing but as far as I can recognize you don't bring up any solutions, either? Perhaps there are no quick solutions? Of course it is all about money, in the economy and the politics everything is about money. Of course the countries of the EU are all looking for their own sake, but "sake" in this discussion means a well working economy. Look, when the eastern countries develop and improve their economy and the people begin to have more money, this is also in the interest of the EU, because they can export and sell their own products in those countries too, as an example. It is simply not true to say the EU is just looking for cheap labour force, this would not help them at all!
Specially Europe is great in creating unique, familiar atmoshere whatever they bubble and wherever they bubble their bubbles :(

:shock:
Especially Europe is great in creating unique familiar atmosphere? What are you talking about?
Well... noone ever promised Poland would be another Switzerland one day. Though in facts more and more banks have being raised recently. Unlike in Switzerland and other western countries.
Don't make yourself illusions about western countries like Switzerland, the money is not growing on trees in my country. And very few of the Swiss are working in a bank. If you believe it or not, there are very poor Swiss too, a lot of poor farmers who don't know how to support their families anymore. Those stereotypes are really amazing to me.
If we don't change this thinking we will never change anything here cause people who rule impose many things on society here and they have only one aim in it - their own money.

If we want to blame someone, then we should blame those with the real big money, and that's mostly not the politicians. Some 400 Billionairs own more than the half income of every human being in this world, this is so injust, it really makes me sick. It's the injust dispensation of money that causes poverty, a few guys in the manager positions that gain so much money and let the people work for them for almost nothing. And this pattern you can find in EVERY country in this world, east and west.

jeffcox
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Post by jeffcox » Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:23 pm

EU politicians are not in it for the fame or personal gain. There's very little of either in it. Almost nobody knows the name of their European representative!

There are divisions between many different people, on many different levels. A 'democratic' country maintains peace and justice by fair systems, equal say and dialogue. The EU works for countries to dialogue and work out their differences before it comes to war. How many wars have there been within the European members since the EU started?

I don't need to practice my English; my ideas I exress for free. You may consider them ridiculous or not, but they are given with the best of intentions. What are they worth? If I can convince one person to abandon violence in benefit of dialogue, if I can convince one person to be positive... well you decide what that's worth!

Rach
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Post by Rach » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:25 pm

jeffcox wrote: if I can convince one person to be positive... well you decide what that's worth!
You just convinced me to be positive... :lol:

LadyMacbeth
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hello again:)

Post by LadyMacbeth » Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:32 am

Hello again:)
Before I start I would like to remind that my main purpose of writing on Englishclub.com is brushing up English - not raising eaither reali-life or virtual...riots;)

So to answer some of your accusations:
Dear LadyMacbeth, what are you expecting of the EU and the western countries to do? You're accusing but as far as I can recognize you don't bring up any solutions, either? Perhaps there are no quick solutions? Of course it is all about money, in the economy and the politics everything is about money. Of course the countries of the EU are all looking for their own sake, but "sake" in this discussion means a well working economy. Look, when the eastern countries develop and improve their economy and the people begin to have more money, this is also in the interest of the EU, because they can export and sell their own products in those countries too, as an example. It is simply not true to say the EU is just looking for cheap labour force, this would not help them at all!
I have to say that I am SCARED of EU. I am just scared. I am euro sceptic. I have always been.
Well.. I don't believe in EU charity. I don't believe in everlasting EU charity even more. I am aware that everything inside EU goes around money and economy. Somehow, however, Switzerland doesn't need any EU to have strong economy. So maybe we should explain what does economy mean?
What I am scared of (I havenot voted for EU when there was national poll about it in Poland. I simply didn't go to vote at all then) is that EU in its whole lack of ideas what to do in future with whole this mess called EU has no doubt much more creative ideas about it than my ... own government. There are plenty of clercks who are employed within structures of EU, they earn fine salaries so they simply have to make up new targets and right ideas to prove that they are worthy to be still paid the money they earn now.
You know...this kind of mess...
Now your plot about producting goods to trade with.
That's a very good idea but how do you want to do it in contemporary Poland?
We (Poland) have a decreasing birth rate, no immgration of course (in any meaningful size at least) and due to multiple reforms as well as due to greed, short-sighteness and our national inborn stupidity our national educational system is practically as devasted as industry is (my private opinion).
So because pupils don't learn nowadays, cosequently they are very badly educated, so how they will be in future skilled enough to produce anything?
You think it can be possible?
I doubt.
Thus I am so scared of EU cause there are many smart people there and they will use all flaws within my country to make their profits on it due to our own ineffectiveness and lack of defending-skills, producing-skills etc.
Summing up my letter in this plot – I think I am much more interested in future of Polnad than my own government.
But because I don’t take their money – I will rather finish my message in this place wishing everyone a good day.

LM

jeffcox
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Post by jeffcox » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:51 pm

LadyMacbeth, I understand that you're scared of Europe. Anybody who loves their country is. In Britain, when the EEC (as it was known back then)was being set up, they promised that it wouldn't lead to loss of sovereignty. They knew, even then, that it would. They lied to the population.

The English court is no longer in control of it's own judgements... everybody goes to the European Court for a higher judgement... making everything longer and more beaurocratic.

It's a two-edged sword that cuts both ways!

If Poland is in such a bad state as you say, then people will take advantage of Poland anyway! So Poland will lose out, if they're in the EU or out of it.

Being in has some advantages. There are initiatives to promote education and health. Many of these initiatives are not made public knowledge so most people are not even aware of them. There is a constant battle to normalize such public systems, whereby most countries would have to dedicate themselves to improving their systems.

Personally, I'm against the European Union! Purely on patriotic grounds... I'd like Britain to remain British. I wouldn't like to have a European flag on my passport and I love the Pound Sterling. But I do recognize that Europe has a lot to offer as a 'community' and not as a 'federal union' as most Euro-ministers would like.

I am pro European Community, though!

LadyMacbeth
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hi again:)

Post by LadyMacbeth » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:11 pm

Hello:)
The English court is no longer in control of it's own judgements... everybody goes to the European Court for a higher judgement... making everything longer and more beaurocratic.
Here is the same:( People e-mail to EU institutions to complain about lags and neglects of Polish clerks and important institutions.
I think they only worsen all things this way:(
I mean - national government should feel guilty and be ashamed or responsible for many things but they aren't.
So I think in such case any complaints higher don't make too much sense at all:(

Look into Polish history - it doesn't matter who ruled here - left wing /right wing or...both wing political parties some problems have never been solved in the right way:(
And EU will use it against me in future - at least I would do it if I were EU:(
You can say - "you aren't a patriot". I think I am a big patriot. But...somehow it happened that at the age of 25 I stopped going to vote. Because I feel cheated till today. I feel being permamently cheated by my own government about the real state of this country. Is joing EU its biggest success? So what is its biggest failure and how to solve it? Unemployment? Emigration the only solution? It sounds like... Hitler's "the final solution" :(.
So if the only solution for me is leaving MY country to have money to live so in fact I don't live in any country at all and thus - consequently - I can refuse going into any national voting when my capital is in Brussel nowadays and it is the biggest success of my country in this decade at least :-(

If Poland is in such a bad state as you say, then people will take advantage of Poland anyway! So Poland will lose out, if they're in the EU or out of it.
This is a very complicated issue. Really complicated.
I think some gains we have - some roads are repaired, farmers get money - so we can see some help (for the poorest of the poor too).
But what next? We have government nin Warsaw, they need my taxes to have their salaries. One day EU will come to conclusion they do more for this country than the government in Warsaw and what will be then? A war? A war on taxes? There were some wars on taxes in history. Let's look into US. 3 years before starting their independent life Great Britain and the colonies were in the biggest friendship. 3 years after - war on taxes and total splitting for ever:(
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Being in has some advantages. There are initiatives to promote education and health.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: - my answer in this place.
Of course joing EU by now has many advantages but how do they promote education and health here?
I would like to know more details.
I'd like Britain to remain British.
I wouldn't care about Britain that could eventually lose its British character. Brits have always been Brits and they will always be. I care much more about Poland. But it seems to me better to care about me myself in this all EU mess cause me myself is the closest object to me to care about.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Read you soon,
LM

wllsp
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Re: hi again:)

Post by wllsp » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:52 am

LadyMacbeth wrote: Is joing EU its biggest success? So what is its biggest failure and how to solve it? Unemployment? Emigration the only solution? It sounds like...
Well, to me it looks like a big success for your country. Take a look at Turkey. It wants to become a member of EU but EU still is not ready for this. So, anyway, it seems to be good at least for your country. And also it's clear that you have not yet benefited from joining EU.
LadyMacbeth wrote: So if the only solution for me is leaving MY country to have money to live so in fact I don't live in any country at all and thus - consequently - I can refuse going into any national voting when my capital is in Brussel nowadays and it is the biggest success of my country in this decade at least :-(
Look, aren't you overacting to this situation? Of course it's great if one finds a job at home. However it's OK at least to have an opportunity to work in other European countres. Here in Russia there was a huge recession back in 90's and lots of people looked for work in other countries.

LadyMacbeth
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illusion of success

Post by LadyMacbeth » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:20 am

Hello:)
Well, to me it looks like a big success for your country. Take a look at Turkey. It wants to become a member of EU but EU still is not ready for this. So, anyway, it seems to be good at least for your country. And also it's clear that you have not yet benefited from joining EU.
Well... somehow it seem to me that things are more about illusion of success than about any real success.
I think Poland is a kind of easter barrier/safety bufor for EU community that is scared of powerful Russia that isn't definitely interested in any EU at all.
You know - taking us they can catch some gangs of international (Polish-Russian) car thieves and try to solve some other problems. Some people have interesting, blood-freezing job.

I can notice they care about quality of their food very much and generally they promote health and education but in their own countries.

Turkey is bit further than Poland. Besides they
represent different culture and religion. They like suiciders. I think EU will not be ready for a long time to take them into their God chosen community unless.... and here I would rather pause cause I don't want to be accused for supporting any acts of terrorism :(

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Of course it's great if one finds a job at home. However it's OK at least to have an opportunity to work in other European countres.
Well... when you get a better job for better money than in your own country it can be a real pleasure to leave it one day. But to leave in order to get a job that you could do in your country for better money or (what is the most frequent these days) doing worse job that you could do in your country having your skills for better money that you could earn for doing more sklled job in your country... hmmm.... does it make any sense?
It is wasting productive strenght or how they call it. And stopping civilisational progress I think .

Who is blame for it?

LadyMacbeth
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correction of some errors

Post by LadyMacbeth » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:23 am

seems

wllsp
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Re: illusion of success

Post by wllsp » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:34 am

LadyMacbeth wrote: Well... somehow it seem to me that things are more about illusion of success than about any real success.
According to some statistics there are some results. "... surging exports to the EU contributed to Poland's strong growth in 2004" and "Poland stands to benefit from nearly $23.2 billion in EU funds, available through 2006. "
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fa ... os/pl.html
I wonder what you think about these facts?
LadyMacbeth wrote: I think Poland is a kind of easter barrier/safety bufor for EU community that is scared of powerful Russia
I don't see the point in this sort of barrier. We are not in the cold war anymore. What kind of infiltration do you think it protects from :) ?
LadyMacbeth wrote: I think EU will not be ready for a long time to take them into their God chosen community unless....
I agree. There are way to many issues. For example they seized the part of Cyprus which is a EU country.
LadyMacbeth wrote: But to leave in order to get a job that you could do in your country for better money or (what is the most frequent these days) doing worse job that you could do in your country having your skills for better money that you could earn for doing more sklled job in your country... hmmm.... does it make any sense?
Who is blame for it?
Of course, it doesn't make any sense.

But I meant that it would be great to have an opportunity to find a job abroad. As far as I know Poland have had high unemplyment since 1989, long before becoming member of EU. And after joing EU lots of Polish workers managed to find jobs in other EU countries.

I perfectly understand that their first jobs might be not ones they had dreamed of, but they agreed to do them probably because they think it was just the first step in the right direction. Ten years ago I was ready to do the same because we had rather bad economic situation here in Russia. However I had no right to work in EU and as result I had a lot of difficulties in finding a job abroad. So I still think that becoming a member of EU is good to many Polish people.

LadyMacbeth
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Place for Poland

Post by LadyMacbeth » Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:28 pm

Hi Russia:)
I perfectly understand that their first jobs might be not ones they had dreamed of, but they agreed to do them probably because they think it was just the first step in the right direction. Ten years ago I was ready to do the same because we had rather bad economic situation here in Russia. However I had no right to work in EU and as result I had a lot of difficulties in finding a job abroad. So I still think that becoming a member of EU is good to many Polish people.
EU surely could be a very big advantage for Poland but... but... but...and here I will pause because of many reasons:(

I am from Poland but I am a voice of the eagle who sounds like - Where is a place for Polish state in the mess you can read beneath. Why Polish people cannot unite around daily problems and try to fight THEM together instead of fighting against each other.
Unfortunatelly noone has a business to make people here more reasonable. They also don't need to be more on on earth than in the air, I am afraid :(

Bush and Putin
Cheers from Silesia to all EC members- Silesia - far from Warsaw,
LM

wllsp
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Re: Place for Poland

Post by wllsp » Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:48 pm

Hi!
LadyMacbeth wrote: Why Polish people cannot unite around daily problems and try to fight THEM together instead of fighting against each other.
It sounds like your country has no national ideas which might unite the nation, doesn't it? Interestingly I can't say here in Russia we have sort of this. But there were lot of them back in the time of the USSR. And I feel that many of them were false. So I feel it's not a bad idea not to care a lot about having or not having things that can unite a nation.

LadyMacbeth
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history rules:)

Post by LadyMacbeth » Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:36 pm

It sounds like your country has no national ideas which might unite the nation, doesn't it? Interestingly I can't say here in Russia we have sort of this. But there were lot of them back in the time of the USSR. And I feel that many of them were false. So I feel it's not a bad idea not to care a lot about having or not having things that can unite a nation.
Hi:)
I like writing with you very much. Your letters are full of interesting observations and suggestions.
Well.. it seems to me that you are really right. In fact. Russia has imperial history, Poland doesn't have any like that. No lately at least.
I mean - our greatness (Polish greatness) finishes at the time of Jagiellonian dynasty. Really.
I noticed that many Polish people suggest their connections with Nethrlands - specially with Sweden.
But to me Sweden is a country who alomost destroyed Poland for good in 1655. I mean if not successful defence of Jasna Gora monastery - Poland would have stopped to exist in 1655. Because of Jasna Gora successful defence against Sweden Poland lost independence about one century later. We stopped to exist as one nation and probably we don't exist as a nation till today. I mean - we are the same way divided that people during times of partition of Polish state.
Russia has never had such problems.
Probably that's element that unites you more. Your imerialistic ambitions.

Well... in case of Poland we have a capitol in bad place. I think that good Polish times finished when a capital was moved from Krakow to Warsaw and these times exist till today.
Many reasons of this fact.
People in Warsaw are too influenced by Moscow from one side and US from the other.
People in Krakow don't think this way. They rather live between Vienna and Australia.
I mean - I am not sure who (of two of them) thinks generally worse but these people differ. They simply differ. Polish Pope was shaped by Crakow. It means a lot of. Crakow has a good memory about Polish greatness. Warsaw is a God damn city. And it will always be:(

OKI. Have you ever been in Poland?
What do you think about my observations?

Write them freely here or there, please.
Regards.
LM

wllsp
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Re: history rules:)

Post by wllsp » Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:09 pm

Hi
LadyMacbeth wrote: Russia has never had such problems.
Probably that's element that unites you more. Your imerialistic ambitions.
Yeah, there are this sort of ideas in Russia. I don't share them but there are people who still believe in the huge power of Russia.

LadyMacbeth wrote: OKI. Have you ever been in Poland?
What do you think about my observations?
I have never been to Poland. Your observations are interesting although controversial a little ;). I'm not so sure about importance of the place of the capital nowadays.

LadyMacbeth
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hello:)

Post by LadyMacbeth » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:22 pm

Hi,

Yeah, there are this sort of ideas in Russia. I don't share them but there are people who still believe in the huge power of Russia.
Well... truly speaking I know very little about Russia and truly speaking I don't need to know anything more.
October Revolution started in Russia, then communism started there. Both awful things to me.

Before you had some very rude and tough tsars. Some of them were great - builders or murderers. I don't remember.

However it would be interesting to me to read a book that would compare Polish and Russian people. I know Russian people don't like Polish at all. They call us damn ass-lickers. I am afraid they are right:(
I have never been to Poland. Your observations are interesting although controversial a little Wink. I'm not so sure about importance of the place of the capital nowadays.
Ups... you seem to spaek like someone who doesn't pay any taxes. I pay ...I swear... :(
So let me to stay at my opinion.

LM

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