A raped woman was sentenced to jail!

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Hardi
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Postby Hardi » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:07 am

Sounds like a law for a very dangerous country, where all men are suspicious and policemen clumsy. So instead police forces everyone by that law. to protect own family members by his self.

Well I believe in past, when these laws were invented it really was so, but.. :roll:

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Postby MissLT » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:26 am

=Ahmad= wrote:Islam forbids a woman to get together with a man ( men ) without being accompanied by her relatives. It’s all done to protect them from adultery, molestation, rape, and the like.

In the case above, the woman was sentenced because she had broken this law. AGAIN, She was sentenced NOT because she had been gang raped.

Why did they double her punishment, may I ask?

=Ahmad= wrote:I’d like to give you an analogy.

Suppose there is a man/woman stealing some jewelry from a jewelry shop. Then the police come to the location. The police ask him/her to stop it. But s/he in fact points a gun at the police and shoots them. Then the criminal runs away. On his/her run, suddenly a car hits him/her because s/he doesn’t pay attention to the traffic. S/he gets injured and then taken to the hospital. And s/he is finally put in jail due to his/her crime.

Getting hit by a car and injured is the consequence of his/her acts. It’s not the punishment. The punishment is the imprisonment. S/he is imprisoned because s/he has broken the law.

I beg your pardon? :?

=Ahmad= wrote:Similiarly, getting raped was the consequence of her act to get together with men without being accompanied by her relatives. It was not the punishment. And the punishment was that she was put in jail because she had broken the law.

Thank you very much.

So in a way you're saying that she deserved it, for she was too stupid to be in a car with men who were not her relatives????? She should have known better that she was too weak and had no brain to protect herself or be herself; that's why she, like any other women, should have needed companions when she was out on the street???? Seven men raped her!!! Seven men, we're talking about here, do you understand that number? I don't care if she broke the law (imbecile law, by the way.), it's her body someone else violated it without her wish. No matter what the situation is it is still inexcusable. :x :x :x

And last but not least, how the &%$& can you call it a law and sensible concept when you wanna whip a woman because she's with stranger men? Please enlighten me because I cannot, in my brightest moment, understand this idealogy. It's too retarded for me.

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Postby Mofo » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:32 pm

Islam forbids a woman to get together with a man ( men ) without being accompanied by her relatives. It’s all done to protect them from adultery, molestation, rape, and the like.

You should be ashamed of yourself [mod's edit]

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Let's live in harmony.

Postby =Ahmad= » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:57 am

First, the gang rape case was already settled. The brutal rapist had been punished. The panel of judge had doubled their sentences. Personally, I am not satisfied with the sentences. They should have got the heavier ones. But, that’s the verdict. If I were the girl (or her family members), I would file an appeal.

Secondly, sadly the media has blown up this case as if the girl were sentenced because she has been gang raped. It’s absolutely NOT. She was sentenced because she had broken the law for getting together with men without being accompanied by her relatives.

Thirdly, it looks odd when women/girls are prohibited to go out alone. Seems that it kills their freedom. But the practice is not that rigid. Girls/women can go anywhere as long as it’s good and safe for them. And to protect them from danger, they must be accompanied by their relatives. If they want to go to their friends’ houses or malls, it’s just fine. They can go there by walking through public places where there are a lot of people there. If they want to go by a taxi for example, they must be accompanied by their relatives. It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.

Fourthly, her sentence was doubled because she opposed the law and discredited it and provoked the media to fight against this law that’s actually good for her. It was not because she had been gang raped. And some media managed to discredit Islam and its system.

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Postby sunshine81 » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:09 am

It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.


It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!

And I also think that this kind of "rule" is pretending that every men in your country is a criminal and dangerous for a woman, doesn't it??

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Postby Oriani » Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:38 pm

sunshine81 wrote:
It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.


It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!

And I also think that this kind of "rule" is pretending that every men in your country is a criminal and dangerous for a woman, doesn't it??


I really liked this part of the conversation.. And Lenney, don't worry. Thank God we don't live under those rules, Imagine.. we would have been bad treated all the time If we do something "wrong".....

It is sad the fact that women, my genre, is such an object like that.. God...that is not good at all.. at all.. but well... things are like that. Poor woman. What can we do???

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Re: Let's live in harmony.

Postby MissLT » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:12 pm

=Ahmad= wrote:Secondly, sadly the media has blown up this case as if the girl were sentenced because she has been gang raped. It’s absolutely NOT. She was sentenced because she had broken the law for getting together with men without being accompanied by her relatives.

I think you're missing the point here. People are outraged because the judges were unfair and the punishment was idiotic. From what people see they punished a girl who just got raped because she was out with a stranger man. Then they doubled her punishment because they said she was trying to manipulate the case, which people called in other countries as freedom of speech. She, a girl who got raped, was trying to get her back her justice and that's what she's got?? This is what people see. You don't punish a girl who got raped by seven men if she didn't ask for her body and soul to be violated. Henceforth, the reason she got the punishment because she was out with a man is absolutely ridiculous.

=Ahmad= wrote: It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.

So in a way the system does them a favor, right, by protecting them from sinful men? Okay, then tell me why do you punish women who didn't want to be protected by going out on the street with men who are not their relatives? You don't do someone a favor and then punish people for not wanting your favor.

=Ahmad= wrote:Fourthly, her sentence was doubled because she opposed the law and discredited it and provoked the media to fight against this law that’s actually good for her. It was not because she had been gang raped. And some media managed to discredit Islam and its system.

:shock: I frigging beg your pardon? A law that is actually good for her? Do you even hear yourself? You don't punish a girl who get gang raped. You don't double the punishment if the girl thinks her justice is not served. And last, you don't think that preposterous law is good.

Gosh, I feel like talking to a person from the stone age. :roll:

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Postby MissLT » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:19 pm

Oriani wrote:
sunshine81 wrote:
It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.


It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!

And I also think that this kind of "rule" is pretending that every men in your country is a criminal and dangerous for a woman, doesn't it??


I really liked this part of the conversation.. And Lenney, don't worry. Thank God we don't live under those rules, Imagine.. we would have been bad treated all the time If we do something "wrong".....

It is sad the fact that women, my genre, is such an object like that.. God...that is not good at all.. at all.. but well... things are like that. Poor woman. What can we do???

Don't we all?? Women who want freedom and more rights from those countries are actually threaten to be killed. Can you imagine?

Their system is the same way elementary school ground operates. The cools, the uncools, the bullies, the weaklings, etc. It's all about rules and strength. If you're weak, you have to sit in the back and shut up. if you cooperate with the bullies, you won't get beaten up and might be protected. I feel so sick!!! :x

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Postby Oriani » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:46 pm

But why women and not men???? :evil:

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Postby Tora » Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:59 am

Oriani wrote:But why women and not men???? :evil:


I feel completely satisfied with my current appearence though...

actually I didn't want to barge into this argument as I am still convinced there is no reason saying all the same for a hundred times... This is a very wide-spread idea that it's a raped woman's fault that such a calamity has happend to her - her dress, behavior and so on, seems like the way a moman behaves waives several rules of men's behavior :roll:
In my country if a woman is walking from a concert alone at the 11 pm in a night dress it is obvious she's looking for troubles... and if something happens it would be considered as "Her fault". So stupid actually

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Postby =Ahmad= » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:23 am

sunshine81 wrote:
It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.


It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!



First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society.

Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.

Third, Islam guides women (and also men) in achieving their goals, ambitions, and ideals. Islam also guides its ummah (people) how to behave. Good goals must be achieved in good ways.

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Postby jrkp » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:02 pm

=Ahmad= wrote:.... In the case above, the woman was sentenced because she had broken this law. AGAIN, She was sentenced NOT because she had been gang raped.

.......


Ok, It's pretty clear that she wasn't sentenced by being raped, and I think all we have something to say in this thread understand that. But that isn't the point...

First at all, It's absolutely unthinkable that a human being (especially a lady) would be sentence to be whipped, not only one or two times... but 200 times!!! Forget me if I don't understand your culture, but how come someone is phsycally punished nowadays, when those kind of sentence had been put aside by many, many countries long time ago?. But that's not all, because after that, she'll spend 90 days in jail!!! :shock:.. Do you know what the sad part is? that she'll pay for that for breaking such a silly law...


My friend, as I see it, she's not only been physically punished, but also she's suffering the moral abuse of a society which privilege the role of a men within it...


=Ahmad= wrote:Islam forbids a woman to get together with a man ( men ) without being accompanied by her relatives. It’s all done to protect them from adultery, molestation, rape, and the like.


My friend, in my opinion, when something is forbidden, something inside us want to have it, despite knowing that doing so, we'll get a punishment... That's part of human nature which is beyond of believes... so said that, let me ask you something: It is not possible that the strict laws encorage these kind of crimes, instead of stop them at all?

=Ahmad= wrote:First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society...


Maybe you right, but it seems that in the reality, that statement is not fullfilled...

=Ahmad= wrote:Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.


May I ask what you understand for freedom?

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Postby Hardi » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:19 pm

=Ahmad= wrote:
sunshine81 wrote:
It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.


It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!



First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society.

Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.

Third, Islam guides women (and also men) in achieving their goals, ambitions, and ideals. Islam also guides its ummah (people) how to behave. Good goals must be achieved in good ways.
Can women be also a taxi driver? It doesn't look very effective, if taxi driver must have a guardian as extra passenger with.

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Postby Krisi » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:22 am

Xkalibur wrote:The holy Rule of EC says: No discussion of politics or religion. ..otherwise I would reply to this topic. :?


:) I've got a lot! :roll:

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Postby Krisi » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:34 am

Hardi wrote:
=Ahmad= wrote:
sunshine81 wrote:
It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.


It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!



First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society.

Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.

Third, Islam guides women (and also men) in achieving their goals, ambitions, and ideals. Islam also guides its ummah (people) how to behave. Good goals must be achieved in good ways.
Can women be also a taxi driver? It doesn't look very effective, if taxi driver must have a guardian as extra passenger with.


Please reply on this Mr. Ahmad...

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Postby =Ahmad= » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:42 am

Dear JRKP,

Firstly, there are several types of punishment in this world such as (life) imprisonment, fine, house arrest, grounded, exile, and even death sentence. Whipping is just one of them.

Secondly, as far as I know (correct me If I am wrong) every law is strict. It’s the practice which is flexible. Similarly, Islamic law (system) is strict, but the practice is very flexible/ situational. For example, Islam forbids Muslims to consume pork. But if that’s the ONLY food available (I am sure that this situation is almost impossible to happen), then it’s allowed to consume it.

=Ahmad= wrote:First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society...


=JRKP= wrote:Maybe you right, but it seems that in the reality, that statement is not fullfilled...


Yes, you are right. The reality is not as beautiful as the concept. That’s why it’s every muslim’s obligation to implement the concept as well as possible so that the reality can be as beautiful as the concept.

=Ahmad= wrote:Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.


=JRKP= wrote:May I ask what you understand for freedom?


Freedom is everybody’s right. Islam gives freedom to all people in this world including women. But Islam guides it’s ummah (people) how to live on the right track.



Dear Hardi,

Your question is really interesting. Frankly speaking, it’s not easy for me to answer it. I am not an Islamic law expert. My educational background is not from Islamic studies. But I am seriously learning Islam and its concept. Anyway, I’ll try to answer it.

Firstly, Islam never burdens women to be the breadwinner. It is men’s (husbands) duty and responsibility to earn money. But if women want to earn money, it’s just fine. Why not? But, again, it’s not an obligation for them.

Secondly, most taxi drivers are men. Similarly, most construction workers, porters, traffic police officers are men. If women want to take those jobs, it’s just fine. Nothing‘s wrong about it.

Thirdly, the Islamic law (system) is very adaptable. It’s in line with the existing eras. There are a lot of issues being discussed at the moment. For example, how to determine kiblat (the direction toward Mecca to do sholat/ prayers on the moon), cloning, abortion, genetic engineering and many more. Islamic law experts collaborating with scientists have been discussing these issues and trying to solve the problems based on the Islamic point of views.

Fourthly, let’s discuss your case.
As I said before, it’s just fine for women to be a taxi driver. They can open the taxi glass windows so that people can see her, pass public areas where there are a lot of people there, or being accompanied by her relatives such as her kid, or select the passengers to take. My suggestion is if that’s the only job available and suitable with her expertise, then just take it. But if there are some other jobs out there, why not try to apply for them.

Thank you very much.

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Postby Krisi » Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:15 am

=Ahmad= wrote:As I said before, it’s just fine for women to be a taxi driver. They can open the taxi glass windows so that people can see her, pass public areas where there are a lot of people there, or being accompanied by her relatives such as her kid, or select the passengers to take. My suggestion is if that’s the only job available and suitable with her expertise, then just take it. But if there are some other jobs out there, why not try to apply for them.

Thank you very much.


My apology for supporting the question given by Hardi. I just find it interesting...
As you have stated Mr. Ahmad, you're not an Islamic Law Expert but you've explained everything clearly and highly admire all of your responses.
Thank you so much.

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Sharia is a way of life

Postby =Ahmad= » Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:52 am

Dear Mentarget,

First, Islam is inseparable with sharia law. As you said (I really appreciate your understanding about some parts of sharia law), sharia law is a system which guides muslims how to live on the right track. It’s a way of life. It’s more than a system of criminal justice which some people perceive. It covers all sectors of life such as inheritance, banking and contract law, etc.

mentarget wrote:It is also the law system inspired by the Koran, the Sunna, older Arabic law systems, parallel traditions, and work of Muslim scholars over the two first centuries of Islam.


Older Arabic law systems and parallel traditions are excluded. Currents scholars still have chance to determine some laws based on their understanding about Quran and Sunnah and their expertise. Muslim Scientists who have good understanding about genes and Islamic studies can issue a law about genetic engineering. Muslim Scientists who have good understanding about politics and Islamic studies can issue a law about political system. It’s called ijtihad (opinions from experts). But it’s up to muslims whether or not they want to follow the ijtihad. It’s different from Quran and Sunnah in which all muslims must follow them.

mentarget wrote:Sharia is the totality of religious, political, social, domestic and private life.


Yes, you are right. It’s a way of life. That’s why it must be done by all muslims all over the world. It’s an integrated system. Muslim cannot take the social and private sides only, we must take all sides so that it will run integrated and beautiful and organized. Being honest, hardworking, and kind personally is not enough. We have to encourage other muslims to do the same because sharia is not only about personal life but also a social life.

mentarget wrote:In Sunni Islam, there are four schools, madhhab, which all coexist in peace. No war has ever been fought over the issue of different schools, and students of religious subjects in most Muslim countries have to learn about all four schools. It is in many cases permissible to use a law from another school, if one feels that it is more appropriate.


Again, you are right. But we don’t have to learn all four schools. Why?

First, because it’s not only four. Some scholars say there are five or six, or seven or may be more.

Second, the schools (groups) are only ijtihad (opinions from experts). It’s up to Muslims whether or not they want to follow them. As you said above, if there is another opinion which is more appropriate, then we should take the more appropriate one.

mentarget wrote:Fiqh is the science of Sharia, and is sometimes used as synonymous with it.


Yes, you are right. Some people think that fiqh is sharia and sharia is fiqh. That’s not correct. Sharia is the concept and fiqh is the way how sharia is implemented. Sharia is strict but fiqh is situational. In other words the implementation of sharia depends mostly on the situation.

I’d like to give you an example. One of some controversial issues in sharia is about polygamy. Sharia says that it’s allowed (not recommended) for men to have more than one wife. But the fiqh (implementation) is not that simple. It depends on the situation. As you already know, even though it’s allowed but the reality is that most husbands are monogamy (have one wife only).

mentarget wrote:…meaning that new interpretations are allowed...


I am one of the muslims who agrees with this opinion. As long as the people (scholars or scientists or the like) have good understanding in Islamic studies and they are expert in their fields, I think they can interpret some laws especially if the issues have something to do with their expertise. This is called ijtihad (opinions from experts).

mentarget wrote:Sharia offers a code for living governing all elements of life, from prayers to fasting to donations to the poor. It decrees that men and women should dress modestly…


Yes, you are right. Because sharia is a way of life.


Dear Mentarget,

Sharia says that unlawful sexual intercourse (outside marriage), drinking of alcohol, theft, and highway robbery and other bad deeds are forbidden. The doers must be punished. But the punishment is situational. In some cases the doers are even pardoned.

Thank you very much.

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Postby Moody » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:11 am

THE REALITY FACT IS SECULAR WESTERNS ARE AFRAID OF SUPERIOR ISLAMIC LAWS AND SOCIAL SYSTEM COMPARE TO THEIR LAWS WHICH HAS ALREADY LOST THE MORAL AND PRINCIPLE GROUNDS AND A HOUCH POUCH OF CONFUSION AND DOUBLE STANDARDS!

Though in 49 Muslim countries Islamic Sharia is not fully implemented in any. But still where it is implemented partially in socialist or Monarchs form of Muslim govt. They are receiving the fruits and positive results.

1- Saudi Arabia one of the country which has the lowest crime rate in the world.
2- Sudan Khartoum (previous British colony) When Islamic sharia implemented according to BBC ALL kind of crime gone dramatically done more than 50% with in days in previously chaotic Sudan.

Islamic laws are strict and discouraging, result oriented. You know what you get if break the law.

That’s why Racist west don’t waste a single chance THROUGH THERE MOSTLY JEWISH MEDIA (you can link all Christian and Jewish reasons) trying to make a ridicule of RARE strict law occasions in particular Islamic countries. TO PORTRAY BAD IMAGE OF 1.6 BILLION OF PEACEFUL Muslims. With out KNOWING IN DEPTH THE REASON AND LOGIC and with out inquiring and putting the real facts in front through media, twisting and manipulating! MAKING LAME EXCUSES OF ATTACKING MUSLIM LANDS. TRYING TO JUSTIFY THERE BARBARIC ACTIONS BY BRAIN WASHING THERE PUBLIC.

Muslims who are not suffering like west in general from the following problems, which is only the BRAND OF WEST IN GENERAL DUE TO THERE LAWS & PRACTICES:

1)Every second women raped in west.
2)Adultery and fornication is now normal in West. You even don’t bother imagining your wife, husband or daughter experimenting around.
3)Teenage pregnancies are out of control. You can imagine of kids moral values and sex condition.
4)Crime rate and violence is high.
5)More people there die by suicide then HIV.
6) Children are molested and not properly raised by there parents and guardians.
7) You so extremely selfish that when your turn comes, don’t take care of your parents.
8) Unrealistic and Unjust division of RESPONSIBILITIES AND PROPERTIY among man monkey and woman monkey. (like unnatural laws about kids).
9) Unjust laws of equal RIGHTS & RESPONSIBILITY about women. Instead of Fair Laws for women. They need Fare Laws as they are not same like man in so many ways, BUT EQUAL THEY ARE. (RIGHTS CAN ONLY BE EQUAL WHEN MAN ALSO START HAVING PERIODS AND GIVING BIRTHS).
10) Intervening and unbalanced state laws about marriage. Discouraging and making marriage a state property and in reverse INCOURAGING the option of adultery and fornication in your western general society. IN Muslim society it is TOTALLY OPPOSITE. Adultery and fornication is most difficult to practice and marrying is easy to practice.
11) Your unjust family laws showing there effect on your general society.
12) Your “secular, capitalist, evolution theory” based of humans evolved from monkeys. And happy human monkey HAS NO OTHER PURPOSE IN THIS WORLD and for happiness needs only :
i)Beautiful mate for sex and to satisfy there animal instincts.
ii)Success in form of capital, good house, bank balance and property, OTHER WISE YOU ARE A LOSER.
iii) By hook or crock Power over world resources.


IS THE REAL CAUSE OF ALL BARBARICISM AT PRESENT IN THE WORLD.
Also your two faced racist laws and practices MOSTLY AGAINST Muslims in your lands. Shows your real hypocrisy and ugly two faces.

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Postby MissLT » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:41 am

Oriani wrote:But why women and not men???? :evil:

Because most women, by physical strength, are weaker than most men.

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Postby MissLT » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:46 am

Tora wrote: This is a very wide-spread idea that it's a raped woman's fault that such a calamity has happend to her - her dress, behavior and so on, seems like the way a moman behaves waives several rules of men's behavior :roll:

In my country if a woman is walking from a concert alone at the 11 pm in a night dress it is obvious she's looking for troubles... and if something happens it would be considered as "Her fault". So stupid actually

Isn't that sad? When a girl who wore a mini-skirt got raped, some people would start staying, "serve her right for wearing a mini-skirt. She was basically asking for trouble." :roll: What the heck...


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