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MissLT
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Postby MissLT » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:26 pm

Admiral wrote:Brian is not the real idiot here.

If you have nothing to talk about the Bible, I suggest you to go elsewhere or PM Danyet for your personal vendetta. I don't have much time to go further on with this nonsense attack. You've having this little message as a warning.

Do not ruin the thread and make it locked with your selfish little thought, okay. Thank you so much.

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Danyet
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Postby Danyet » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:22 am

The thing that makes the Bible so unique is its historical value. So far the Bible has given many details of ancient life and customs.
Even things written about in the Bible that seemed to be improbable to modern science and historians has eventually been proven to be correct.

One example is the Biblical story of a particular battle between Israelites and Assyrians. The Assyrians had amassed a great army that vastly outnumbered the Israelites. The Israelites feared for their own destruction. However, the Bible states that "the angel of Yahwey went out and in one night slew 85,000 Assyrian soldiers" thereby saving Israel. (I am not sure of the exact number but it was unbelievably large.)

Modern day historians did not believe this story until recently when archeologists found a stone tablet with the legal and royal writings from the king of Assyria on it.
This stone tablet told the same story that the Bible told, except that it was from the Assyrians point of view. It stated that the Assyrian king had the Israelites out numbered but decided to withdraw from the battle with the Israelite because 85,000 of his soldiers died from a plauge in one night.

There are many such stories as this in the Bible. Little slices of ancient life. And predictions that have apparently come true. I find them quite fascinating.

There! Are you happy Lennye? The thread is back on track now.

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Postby MissLT » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:25 am

Muaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Of course, I am! :wink:

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Postby jeffcox » Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:37 am

danyet, your last post shows how normal, scientific events were explained and understood as mystical and miraculous workings of God.

It may also explain how Jesus was seen as some gift from God, but may simply have been a Mother Teresa, a person who dedicated his life to helping others.

If we consider that many stories in the bible are considered parables, and many are later explained as natural occurance instead of a miracle or mystical event, then what exactly is left to believe in?

How much of what is left proves that Jesus, or God, is anything more than superstition and over-imagination?

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Postby Danyet » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:17 am

jeffcox wrote:danyet, your last post shows how normal, scientific events were explained and understood as mystical and miraculous workings of God.
My post explained nothing of the sort. I did not attempt to explain how 85,000 men died of a mysterious disease that killed them all in one night. I seriously doubt that science has a proper explanation either!

You can all draw your own conclusions how to explain these occurrences.

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Postby Shazzam » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:21 am

danyet wrote:
jeffcox wrote:danyet, your last post shows how normal, scientific events were explained and understood as mystical and miraculous workings of God.
My post explained nothing of the sort. I did not attempt to explain how 85,000 men died of a mysterious disease that killed them all in one night. I seriously doubt that science has a proper explanation either!

You can all draw your own conclusions how to explain these occurrences.


Applause! 8) :D

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Postby jeffcox » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:42 pm

You could question the idea of 'in one night'.

Many languages have an expression such as in Engish 'overnight' which is often used for something that happens suddenly or very quickly. It doesn't really have to be taken literally to mean during one night only.

And your text does indicate that many events could have a logical explanation.

Again, it's a question of faith. And, I repeat that it is highly improbable, if not impossible, that you could change someone's religious faith through logical argument.

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Postby Danyet » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:44 pm

It matters not whether there are logical scientific reasons or not. That was not the point i was making!!
The point is --- that at one time Biblical stories were simply dismissed as fables by science --- but modern archeology has proven the stories to be accurate in every detail time and time again.

The book covers thousands of years of history and is probably the most important document available to us. For generations it was painstakingly recited and remembered and then painstakingly copied. The Dead Sea Scrolls proved how accurate it has been copied.

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Postby jeffcox » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:07 pm

Of this, I agree with you. It's an invaluable historical document.

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Postby MissLT » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:40 pm

But I don't see it as a big deal, though, big D. The Bible was written by men. Therefore, it's not a big surprise that it has historical facts in it. :?

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Postby Lalee » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:43 pm

LennyeTran wrote:Because to him they were indeed sinners. From what I know about the Bible, only Jesus was allowed to join God in heaven without being judged. He was born pure from all sins. Hence, he was a savior to guide people out of their sins.

Very good!
LennyeTran wrote:My being nice is not about the fake talks, the let's make love not wars ~. My being nice is thou shalt not murder or whatever the ten commandments are. Or a little more to it. A good conscience, good judgement, good common sense, you know.

I know what you mean but what I was trying to say is that most people think that Jesus' teaching is all about being a good person, that's why they always try to do good if they want to have a good relation with God. They're like, "Today I've been such a nice person. I did this, I did that" so they feel as if God is proud of them for what they did.
Sometimes when I ask people, "How can someone go to heaven?" They usually say, "You have to be a good person if you want to enter there."
Do you understand what I was getting at?
Now I'm not saying that it's bad to do good for others. But what's wrong is to expect to have a reward from God for doing such things like in this case would be going to heaven.
As for the 10 commandments, read this:
Romans 3, 28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

And there are many similar verses like that one.


LennyeTran wrote:This is why I said a nice person is already a half Christian. And I don't see anything is wrong with not recognizing Jesus as a savior. I mean, if you live a life with no regret, no shame, no whatsoever, do you need someone to tell you that you're a sinner? I mean, what's the use of living a life without any harm done and being called a sinner?

Most people see a Christian like a nice person so I know what you're trying to say. If you meet someone who tells you he is a Christian but you know this person has killed someone, how would you see him? You wouldn't see him as a real Christian, right?
I wouldn't see him as one either.
After you receive salvation, in the Bible says that you're led by the Holy Spirit and I don't think the Holy Spirit will let you do such thing.
Also I don't think a real Christian would do it either since he knows what Jesus did for him. Now let's suppose he does it. Then that would be a problem between him and God. God gave him such person the chance to know the truth about the Gospel and get saved so what that person is supposed to do is sharing what he knows about the Gospel to others and not be around killing people.



LennyeTran wrote:Why would they have to be in hell to feel all ther remorse that they didn't recognize Jesus? Doesn't that mean God likes to punish more than judging you for who you are? :twisted: And a bit of a control freak, I might say. Punish those who don't believe in his work....

God doesn't judge you for who you are. If He did that, I think anyone would be able to enter heaven.
I know it's hard to understand Him but what can we do? For example, can we understand someone whose IQ is beyond ours? A normal person's IQ is..how much? Between 90-100? Now let's say that God has an unlimited IQ. How can we understand Him? There's a way to do it though. It's by throwing away our own beliefs and thoughts.

If He tells us something, I think it's for our own good so I guess it's better to follow Him even when it's hard to understand with our own logic.
Isaiah 29,16
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
"He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter,
"He knows nothing"?


All people want to live the way the want and don't want anyone to interfere in their lives that's why most of them don't want to have anything to do with God or any religion.
But I think it's better to have something rather than nothing, you know?
Last edited by Lalee on Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Lalee » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:23 pm

LennyeTran wrote:Why would God send Jesus to help humans with their sins when he alread knew they would end up repeating their sins? So was Jesus here just to tell people how sinful they were and not in a mean of a second chance for humans?:?

Jesus' sacrifice is eternal. Imagine Jesus dying again and again for the sins that all people commit everyday. Wouldn't that be stupid?
Jesus' death needs to be accepted by faith believing in what God says rather than what our eyes see.
To God there's only one sin that leads people to hell. It's Adam's sin.
Romans 5, 12-13
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So when Jesus came and died, He washed all our sins away. Although we can see the world full of sin, to God a person who believes what He says and accepts Jesus' without caring about his own logic and thoughts, then that person has no sin to God.
I'd explain it better through the old testament but I think it would be too much. People here think I'm preaching or something, you know?

LennyeTran wrote:It doesn't matter what we've done?

Well it seems that to God it doesn't matter too much because He sees us in a different way that we see ourselves. Even if you were a little girl, He'd see you as a sinner because of Adam's sin.
Now after you know the truth about the Gospel, then it does matter how you live before God.

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Postby MissLT » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:21 pm

Lalee wrote:I know what you mean but what I was trying to say is that most people think that Jesus' teaching is all about being a good person, that's why they always try to do good if they want to have a good relation with God.

I still can't see the difference, you know. Jesus was here to wash our sins away. He was here to preach us that we were sinners and should repent our sins. He was here to preach us to love and all.

He's well-known even to the non-Christians because of the teaching give the other cheek to your enemy, so both of your cheeks would be evenly slapped. It carries many hidden messages in that story. Being tolerant even to the ignorants, peace within thou, calm, forgiveness, etc. You don't get all that from a not nice person or a Christian who doesn't understand his teaching.

Being nice and being Christian goes hand in hand. You're understood to be nice if you understand his teaching. It's a given; no question asked here. However, if you're a nice person, you're required to understand his teaching to be saved. Hence, this part I don't get.

Lalee wrote: But what's wrong is to expect to have a reward from God for doing such things like in this case would be going to heaven.

Why not? Going to heaven is not a reward to me. It's what you deserve. And if you live your life without shame, remorse, regret or anything, why don't you deserve to go to heaven?


Lalee wrote:Most people see a Christian like a nice person so I know what you're trying to say. If you meet someone who tells you he is a Christian but you know this person has killed someone, how would you see him? You wouldn't see him as a real Christian, right?
I wouldn't see him as one either.
After you receive salvation, in the Bible says that you're led by the Holy Spirit and I don't think the Holy Spirit will let you do such thing.
Also I don't think a real Christian would do it either since he knows what Jesus did for him. Now let's suppose he does it. Then that would be a problem between him and God. God gave him such person the chance to know the truth about the Gospel and get saved so what that person is supposed to do is sharing what he knows about the Gospel to others and not be around killing people.

I don't think you've answered my question in this part. :?


Lalee wrote:God doesn't judge you for who you are. If He did that, I think anyone would be able to enter heaven.

I don't agree with this. If he judged you for who you were, then less people would be allowed to heaven. Christians said Christians would be saved if they asked for forgiveness and acknowledged Jesus despite what they did. That's why I've seen people go to Church every week to confess. And what do you know, the next day they've committed the same sin.

So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus? And why would a less nice Christian go to heaven because he acknowledged Jesus? I thought Jesus died for our sins. Doesn't that mean he died for ignorants who didn't acknowledge him, if this is a sin? How come it's still a sin if people don't acknowledge Jesus? :?



Lalee wrote:I know it's hard to understand Him but what can we do? For example, can we understand someone whose IQ is beyond ours? A normal person's IQ is..how much? Between 90-100? Now let's say that God has an inlimited IQ. How can we understand Him? There's a way to do it though. It's by throwing away our own beliefs and thoughts.

Yes, you may do that. But the problem is people don't even know how wise or powerful God really is. The Bible was written by men. How sure are you to say that they indeed didn't change a bit to suit themselves?

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Postby MissLT » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:27 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:Why would God send Jesus to help humans with their sins when he alread knew they would end up repeating their sins? So was Jesus here just to tell people how sinful they were and not in a mean of a second chance for humans?:?

Jesus' sacrifice is eternal. Imagine Jesus dying again and again for the sins that all people commit everyday. Wouldn't that be stupid?
Jesus' death needs to be accepted by faith believing in what God says rather than what our eyes see.
To God there's only one sin that leads people to hell. It's Adam's sin.

Oh, I see. So in shorts, disobedience is our sin. And not acknowledging Jesus as a savior means we've disobeyed God. And that's why it's a sin, right? :?

Admiral

Postby Admiral » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:03 pm

yes! According to religion, Jesus (as God's son or as a prophet) has come to make people clear that God exists and that we have to believe in him.

If we look at the philosophical side: Work gives you money and demands you setting time in it, partner give you love and demands a love fitting to him/her, parents give you love and they don't demand anything from you. (but you still fight with your parents sometimes, so it's not ideal)
And as the parent's love is true love, the philosophic idea is: Love is the only thing without demanding, so the ideal love would be the love without fight.
That is God, an object which all people love without demanding, the ideal of love. :lol:

So we should thank Jesus...

Hey, I don't believe in God. This is only my own explanation why people believe in Jesus and God and religion.

remember, I'm marxist.

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Postby Danyet » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:34 am

So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus?

He would not necessariy be excluded from heaven. The actual truth about this is clouded. Many christians even preachers do not understand the scriptures.

Many christians do not believe in a place called hell either. Hell is simply a metaphor for not receiving immortallity. Also, the physical place called hell is an invention of the pagan Greeks and adopted into christian beliefs through the corrupted Catholic church of Rome.

Make no mistake: The christian god Yahwey would not condemn any poor person to eternal torture by fire.

This is one of the worst catholic lies perpetrated on the masses and is an afront to the character of the creator himself!

Come on people, use your brain here! Would a god who loves us enough to devise a plan to redeem the entire world back to him actually torture those people who fall short, by burning them alive in a firey furnace but not allow them to even die to escape the pain?
Now if I thought God would actually do that I would join forces with Satan, wouldn't
you?
And, I have to wonder, how many people have joined forces with Satan because of this lie!!!

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Postby jeffcox » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:36 am

LennyeTran wrote:Being nice and being Christian goes hand in hand. You're understood to be nice if you understand his teaching. It's a given; no question asked here. However, if you're a nice person, you're required to understand his teaching to be saved. Hence, this part I don't get.


I understand your argument.

I think it's like this:
Simply being good isn't enough for God.
Recognizing God isn't enough for God.

He wants his cake and eat it! He wants everything and nothing less than that. He wants you to praise him and worship him and thank him for everything because he is God.

"Do what I say and thank me for it." is what God says... just like an army general who expects his soldiers to obey his every order with blind obedience. A soldier with less experience has no right to question a superior's order, imagine such insolence!

Is this what you're trying, so politely, to say?

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:07 am

danyet wrote:
So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus?

He would not necessariy be excluded from heaven. The actual truth about this is clouded. Many christians even preachers do not understand the scriptures.

You know I've asked my cousins and Catholics I know this same question, and they have been having a hard time to answer me.

danyet wrote:Many christians do not believe in a place called hell either. Hell is simply a metaphor for not receiving immortallity. Also, the physical place called hell is an invention of the pagan Greeks and adopted into christian beliefs through the corrupted Catholic church of Rome.


My cousin said hell in Christianity is not a hot, burning place, where devils have big pot of oil and they would throw you it it, or any horrid descriptions people have to scare kids. She said hell is a place where there is no day or night, and where you would remorse for what you did on earth. Right?

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:16 am

jeffcox wrote:
I understand your argument.

I think it's like this:
Simply being good isn't enough for God.
Recognizing God isn't enough for God.

Well, it's more of simply being good isn't enough for God. Because if you acknowledge Jesus means you've obeyed him or so to say; therefore, you'll be saved. However, if you go against the teaching. You'll be damned. Being a nice, non-Christian, on the other hand, is different. It doesn't matter! You'll be damned anyway despite how good you are on earth. As I see God won't judge you, a nice non-Christian, for you'll be ended up in hell.

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Postby Danyet » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:23 am

LennyeTran wrote:
danyet wrote:
So She said hell is a place where there is no day or night, and where you would remorse for what you did on earth. Right?

Well, that is what some people say but they have to be completely wrong!

You see, the Bible states that humans were created a little "lower" than the angels. Angels are Immortal whereas humans are Mortal.
Humans receive immortallity only at the time of the great resurection at the end of the age. Eclesiastes tells us that "The dead know knothing. They have no rememberance of former times and no interaction with the living." "They sleep" "return to dust".

If this is true then they can not be in a hell or purgatory (which is another pagan/catholic idea, not Biblical).

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:25 am

But Adam and Eve were like angels, immortal, until they ate the forbidden food.... :?


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