About Bible

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Arale
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Post by Arale » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:12 am

I was very curious about The Sangreal in The Da Vinci Code. As every document used in that book is true, and so is The Sangreal. This's what I found on the internet. Is really there something hidden behind the Bible?

_Arale_

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:14 am

What's your email, Arale? I'll forward you what my cousin sent to me about the Da Vinci Code. :wink:

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Post by Arale » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:17 am

LennyeTran wrote:What's your email, Arale? I'll forward you what my cousin sent to me about the Da Vinci Code. :wink:
I'm waiting for it! Thanks! :wink:

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Post by Danyet » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:31 am

LennyeTran wrote:But Adam and Eve were like angels, immortal, until they ate the forbidden food.... :?
No. They only ate the fruit from the tree of knowlege of good and evil. It was the tree of life that was to give them immortallity. After they had eaten the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowlege of good and evil God prevented them from from gaining access to the tree of life and thereby obtaining immortallity. God could not have any more corrupted creatures with immortality!!!

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Post by Shazzam » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:53 am

danyet wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:But Adam and Eve were like angels, immortal, until they ate the forbidden food.... :?
No. They only ate the fruit from the tree of knowlege of good and evil. It was the tree of life that was to give them immortallity. After they had eaten the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowlege of good and evil God prevented them from from gaining access to the tree of life and thereby obtaining immortallity. God could not have any more corrupted creatures with immortality!!!
Is it written anywhere in the bible what the fruit was that was on the tree of life? Just curious. I know that they were tempted by the serpent to eat the apple etc but I didn't know about the tree of life.

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Post by Danyet » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:29 am

Again the answer is "No". The name of the fruit is not mentioned.

The fruit form the tree that Adam and Eve ate is not mentioned by name either.
I think it was Renaissance art that gave us the myth of the apple.

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Post by Shazzam » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:08 am

danyet wrote:Again the answer is "No". The name of the fruit is not mentioned.

The fruit form the tree that Adam and Eve ate is not mentioned by name either.
I think it was Renaissance art that gave us the myth of the apple.
SORRY!! I didn't read the whole thread so obviously you have answered this before.

Thanks for the information anyway. :roll:

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Post by Lalee » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:17 pm

LennyeTran wrote: He's well-known even to the non-Christians because of the teaching give the other cheek to your enemy, so both of your cheeks would be evenly slapped. It carries many hidden messages in that story. Being tolerant even to the ignorants, peace within thou, calm, forgiveness, etc. You don't get all that from a not nice person or a Christian who doesn't understand his teaching.
So you don't understand why a good person has to understand Jesus's teaching to get saved?
Let me copy the verse that you are referring to.
Matthew 5, 38
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Through those verses we can see that Jesus is telling us to be good and stand others even if they treat us bad. Now, are we able to do that naturally? No. Most people have a negative reaction. If someone hits them, they will just hit them back.
Jesus wanted people to realize that they were not able to keep the Law, that through Moses' Law they wouldn't be able to get saved but through Him.

Mark 10, 17
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!


According to that person, he was following the commandments well but in his heart he knew he was lacking of something that's why he came up to Jesus and asked him what he needed to do to inherit eternal life. When Jesus asked him to do a nice thing for the poor, he was not able to do it and just left. Through him, we can see that people are not able to follow all the commandments perfectly and God knows it.
This goes for the people who are under the Law: Galatians 3, 10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

LennyeTran wrote: Being nice and being Christian goes hand in hand. You're understood to be nice if you understand his teaching. It's a given; no question asked here. However, if you're a nice person, you're required to understand his teaching to be saved. Hence, this part I don't get.
I hope my explanation above made this clear.

LennyeTran wrote: Why not? Going to heaven is not a reward to me. It's what you deserve. And if you live your life without shame, remorse, regret or anything, why don't you deserve to go to heaven?
If we deserved to go there, Jesus would've never came and died. Why would God have sent him if He had known that we could enter there by ourselves without any help?
It seems that God doesn't think people deserve it.
LennyeTran wrote: I don't agree with this. If he judged you for who you were, then less people would be allowed to heaven. Christians said Christians would be saved if they asked for forgiveness and acknowledged Jesus despite what they did. That's why I've seen people go to Church every week to confess. And what do you know, the next day they've committed the same sin.
I made a mistake in my sentence, "God doesn't judge you for who you are. If He did that, I think anyone would be able to enter heaven."
Replace the "anyone" for "no one". Better now? Sorry, my bad.
As for asking forgiveness over and over again. Those people don't believe in Jesus' death truly.
If God tells them that their sins have been forgotten and washed away.. Then why do they have to ask for forgiveness again?
Hebrews 10, 17
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Now that doesn't mean that you can sin as much as you want. We're weak and most likely to commit sins and that's natural but if we're led by the Holy Spirit, our lives can be changed.
God asks us to live spiritual life not focusing on us or how weak we are but on his Word and the Gospel.
God wants people to receive Jesus' sacrifice and His word through faith.
LennyeTran wrote: So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus? And why would a less nice Christian go to heaven because he acknowledged Jesus? I thought Jesus died for our sins. Doesn't that mean he died for ignorants who didn't acknowledge him, if this is a sin? How come it's still a sin if people don't acknowledge Jesus? :?
Your question makes sense and it's logical. However, to God people who die without acknowledging Jesus as their saviour can't enter heaven. Yeah, Jesus also died for those ignorants who never accepted Him but God accepts those who know they need Jesus to present themselves before God.
God only thinks Jesus deserves to go to heaven now if Jesus advocates for people who believe in Him, then God allows such person to enter.
It's like first someone had a black heart full of sin then when he accepts Jesus' death by faith, his heart is covered with Jesus' blood so God can't see sin anymore in there. So such person is called righteous before God's eyes.

LennyeTran wrote: Yes, you may do that. But the problem is people don't even know how wise or powerful God really is. The Bible was written by men. How sure are you to say that they indeed didn't change a bit to suit themselves?
Yeah, it was written by men but all the messages and thoughts in there are God's.
It's like an illiterate persone comes to you and asks you to write down a letter for her so she dictates and you just write down all she tells you.
As for men changing it, I don't think God would allow something like that to happen.
There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.

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Post by jeffcox » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:58 pm

...However, to God people who die without acknowledging Jesus as their saviour can't enter heaven. Yeah, Jesus also died for those ignorants who never accepted Him but God accepts those who know they need Jesus to present themselves before God.
God only thinks Jesus deserves to go to heaven now if Jesus advocates for people who believe in Him, then God allows such person to enter.


In other words, the fact that we have to recognize Jesus is a capriche, a fancy of his.

I mean, if we do good all our lives, we're damned if we don't recognize Jesus. If God wants us to be good and follow His word, then that should logically be enough for a place in heaven. But no, that's not enough for Him, we have to recognize Him, through Jesus. So egoistic of Him, who Himself claims to be a jealous God... aren't those human flaws and therefore God has no right to judge us.


There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.

Hmm... I have never met anyone who believes in everything in the Bible, as it is written in the Bible. Not one person! But then, I've never met the Pope!

People choose which scriptures they like to follow and how. Plus, the interpretation of the Bible changes with every generation. People burned witches based on scripture from the Bible.

As an example:
Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Personally, I find this idea outrageous and can't understand how a woman would agree to this. We are to follow this scripture and believe that women should be subservient to men?

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Post by MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:26 am

Lalee wrote: If we deserved to go there, Jesus would've never came and died. Why would God have sent him if He had known that we could enter there by ourselves without any help?
It seems that God doesn't think people deserve it.
But I believe there are people who could go to heaven without acknowledging Jesus as a savior, though. What about Buddhist monks, rabis, or other members of any monastic orders beside Christians? Where would they go, heaven or hell? :?

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Post by MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:52 am

Lalee wrote: Yeah, it was written by men but all the messages and thoughts in there are God's.
It's like an illiterate persone comes to you and asks you to write down a letter for her so she dictates and you just write down all she tells you.
As for men changing it, I don't think God would allow something like that to happen.
If you had no faith that those people would do anything good in the first place, would you trust them to do something for you? And if you had no one else to do it beside them, how sure could you say they wouldn't change a thing?

As you said, humans can do no good. That's why we need to acknowledge Jesus to be saved. If we were born with sins and can't get rid of them, changing something in the Bible wouldn't make a big deal, right? It's a part of our already-born-with sins. Therefore, we'd get the chance to ask for forgiveness at the end, anyway. Right?
Lalee wrote:There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.
Since the dawn of life humans have already been believing in something. We're spiritual species. We're too fragile to deal with this cruel world. And especially when we understand life and death life is even harder. For example, when our loved ones get hurt or are about to pass away or other problems, we'll pray to something more powerful than us just in hope that there would be a miracle.

Imagine if someone understood all this and used it on you to persuade you to believe him/her? Would you believe his/her ~ when you were desperate? I believe there'd be a big chance that you would. I never deny men who wrote the Bible were not intelligent. In fact, they were too brilliant and perspicacious to envisage what people fear and want most.

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Post by MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:03 am

jeffcox wrote:
As an example:
Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Personally, I find this idea outrageous and can't understand how a woman would agree to this. We are to follow this scripture and believe that women should be subservient to men?
There's one part in the New Testtament that is similar to this one (I can't remember it now. I'll look for it again). I read and I found it quite absurd. I pointed it to my bf and asked, "and you believe in this book?" He just rolled his eyes. :lol: :lol:

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Post by jeffcox » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:38 am

Oh, there's more!

1 Corinthians 11:8-9
"For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."


There are even more such citations of sexism agains women in the Bible.

Like I said, people choose the parts they want to believe. For this, there is no Christianism if everybody has their own dogma.

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Post by MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:45 am

This, I have to say, happens in every religion. In Buddhism, before women were considered as people who couldn't be enlightened at all. There was no way for women to become a Buddha. I did not know it until my mom told me about this. That was when I decided to give religions a bit of a reading.

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Post by jeffcox » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:00 am

Yeah, and for this reason I frown at anyone who says the Bible is the word of God. Those words are so elusive and their meaning is so fickle. :?

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Post by Lalee » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:26 pm

LennyeTran wrote:
But I believe there are people who could go to heaven without acknowledging Jesus as a savior, though. What about Buddhist monks, rabis, or other members of any monastic orders beside Christians? Where would they go, heaven or hell? :?
You're still asking the same question after I gave you all that info?? What's wrong with you? :shock: :wink:
According to the Bible, yeah those people are not allowed to heaven. It doesn't matter if it's a monk or the president or a rabi etc.
I know you don't believe it but that's how it is.

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Post by Lalee » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:37 pm

jeffcox wrote: Hmm... I have never met anyone who believes in everything in the Bible, as it is written in the Bible. Not one person! But then, I've never met the Pope!
I don't think the Pope believes in all what the Bible says.

jeffcox wrote: Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Personally, I find this idea outrageous and can't understand how a woman would agree to this. We are to follow this scripture and believe that women should be subservient to men?
I know what you mean but again people can't understand God fully or what He does.
As I said before, I think it's better to be His ally rather than His enemy.

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Post by MissLT » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:42 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:
But I believe there are people who could go to heaven without acknowledging Jesus as a savior, though. What about Buddhist monks, rabis, or other members of any monastic orders beside Christians? Where would they go, heaven or hell? :?
You're still asking the same question after I gave you all that info?? What's wrong with you? :shock: :wink:
According to the Bible, yeah those people are not allowed to heaven. It doesn't matter if it's a monk or the president or a rabi etc.
I know you don't believe it but that's how it is.
And that's why I was asking you, how sure are you to say that the Bible hasn't been changed? :wink:

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Post by Lalee » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:01 pm

LennyeTran wrote: If you had no faith that those people would do anything good in the first place, would you trust them to do something for you? And if you had no one else to do it beside them, how sure could you say they wouldn't change a thing?
As far as I know, all the books in the Bible were written by people of God like the apostles and the prophets among others. Although they were regular men, their lives were led by God. They were God-fearing men.
LennyeTran wrote: As you said, humans can do no good. That's why we need to acknowledge Jesus to be saved. If we were born with sins and can't get rid of them, changing something in the Bible wouldn't make a big deal, right? It's a part of our already-born-with sins. Therefore, we'd get the chance to ask for forgiveness at the end, anyway. Right?
I think it would make a big deal. Ask for forgiveness at the end? When at the end?

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Post by Lalee » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:07 pm

LennyeTran wrote: And that's why I was asking you, how sure are you to say that the Bible hasn't been changed? :wink:
I think I told you why I am sure of that in one of my previous posts.
Too bad I can't prove to you that the Bible hasn't been changed. :(

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Post by MissLT » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:21 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: If you had no faith that those people would do anything good in the first place, would you trust them to do something for you? And if you had no one else to do it beside them, how sure could you say they wouldn't change a thing?
As far as I know, all the books in the Bible were written by people of God like the apostles and the prophets among others. Although they were regular men, their lives were led by God. They were God-fearing men.
Bible translations

As Hebrew and Greek, the original languages of the bible, have idioms and concepts not easily translated, there is an on going critical tension about whether it is better to give a word for word translation or to give a translation that gives a parallel idiom in the target language. For instance in the English language Protestant translations of the Christian bible, translations like the New Revised Standard Version and the New American Standard Version are seen as more "word for word" translations, whereas translations like the New International Version and New Living Version attempt to give relevant parallel idioms. The Living Bible and The Message are two paraphrases of the bible that try to convey the original meaning in contemporary language. The further away one gets from word to word translation, the text becomes more readable while relying more on the theological understanding of the translator. Further, both Hebrew and Greek, like some of the latin languages, use the male gender of nouns and pronouns to refer to groups that contain both sexes. This creates some difficulty in determining whether a noun should be translated using terms that refer to men only, or men and women inclusively. Some translations avoid the issue by directly translating the word using male only terminology, whereas others try to use inclusive language where the translators believe it to be appropriate. One translation that attempts to use inclusive language is the New Revised Standard Version.

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: As you said, humans can do no good. That's why we need to acknowledge Jesus to be saved. If we were born with sins and can't get rid of them, changing something in the Bible wouldn't make a big deal, right? It's a part of our already-born-with sins. Therefore, we'd get the chance to ask for forgiveness at the end, anyway. Right?
I think it would make a big deal. Ask for forgiveness at the end? When at the end?
When is the end to you?

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Post by jeffcox » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:39 pm

It has been recognized by most Bible scholars that the old testament was made up of various scrollsand before those scrolls existed, the stories were passed on by mouth, undergoing modifications through the generations and different regions.

When the scrolls were being written, the different pieces of the same story were 'patched together' into what, at that time, seemed the most logical story.

Then, when canonizing the old testament, somebody chose which scrolls were the best ones to go in - like the modern-day Harry Potter, I choose book one and book 3 - thus, undergoing more changes.

There was then one more modification when everything was translated into English.

So, three modifications at least!
And after all those modifications, who says it's the Word of God?

I really love the way that if it makes sense in the Bible, use it... if it doesn't, then it's God being more intelligent than us so we should accept it anyway, so use it. Why can't a Christian simply say, I don't understand it?

Because if they can't understand it, they cannot follow the teachings of Jesus and go to heaven. Therefore, they have to 'understand it'... because they're damned if they don't.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:53 pm

LennyeTran wrote: When is the end to you?
Well there's no end to me. Although when we die on this earth, it's "the end" like a human being.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:22 pm

jeffcox wrote: So, three modifications at least!
And after all those modifications, who says it's the Word of God?
Well I still think that the Bible is the word of God.
jeffcox wrote: I really love the way that if it makes sense in the Bible, use it... if it doesn't, then it's God being more intelligent than us so we should accept it anyway, so use it. Why can't a Christian simply say, I don't understand it?
There are some things that I'm sure Christians do not agree with what the Bible says. Let's take the verse you mentioned about women being subservient to men as an example. Most women might think that God is unfair but, can they change what it says there?
The only thing they can do is quitting church.
Some people see God as an unfair being but in the Bible says He's a just God but then again you don't trust in the Bible so...

jeffcox wrote: Because if they can't understand it, they cannot follow the teachings of Jesus and go to heaven. Therefore, they have to 'understand it'... because they're damned if they don't.
Jeff, from the way you write and express yourself about God I can tell you kind of despise Him. I do not know what your beliefs are but I'm sure when you were in hardships you've praid to God. So it doesn't matter the way you think of Him, you can't deny the fact that you need Him.
People can complain all the want about God but nothing will change.

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religions

Post by donis » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:56 pm

for my opinion all religions can be only a way for god..but i know there is not any religion say about another religions bad , all religion have to respect to anothers !! but unfortunately these days i see so many peoples in the world think about like fanatic , and try to speak ill of other religions ..this is so dangerous point for future of world!!

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Post by Danyet » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:12 pm

I have already told you where the proof is that the hebrew Bible has not been changed in at least 2500 - 3000 years by as much as a letter...twice! Yet you still all argue this point.

There is no question by serious minds that the Hebew Bible is unchanged.

The question is about the New Testament. But the only question is "why were some books chosen and others not?".

I have read some of the books not chosen for the NT and it is clear that there were fakes just from their poorly written style.

There are no changes in the New Testament. There are only good accurate translations and poor translations which can easily be verified by anyone by checking the original Greek New Testament. This can be done by anyone who bothers to go to their book store and look at a Greek Lexicon. All the words are numbered and explained line by line.

Your bickering and arguing this point only show me how little you know about the subject at hand!

And you know what they say about opinions!

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Post by jeffcox » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:41 am

Danyet, you are correct in saying that I know little about the subject. I have never mooted this point!

I can only give my opinions and the very little knowledge I have of the bible. If this is not enough to discuss the subject, then I'm afraid that nobody would feel the incentive to research or even change their opinion.

I did use the word 'change' once and I would have prefered the word 'modified' in that I believe exact translations are not possible in all aspects of any language.

As for Greek, try translating the ancient Greek word and the English word that are generally accepted as 'know'. I have a friend who did his Masters based on the understanding of this word in Greek and this word in English. It's enough to make your eyes water! He wasn't refering to the Bible at all, his research was on Greek mythology, but the idea is transferable.

As far as my reading has produced, I have only seen that one holy book confirs and validates the originality of the last one. You may correct me on this if you have more information; I'd be very pleased to hear and study that.

As to 'anyone who bothers to...'; I can only say that my time is pretty full, and as the holy books are not my line of real interest, I have to give what little time I have to my immediate needs. It's not that I can't be bothered; it's that I have other necessities.

I am always open to your opinions, your knowledge and your corrections. I will endeavour to consider and study them all, given my limited time.

Giving opinions is worthless if you are not equally open to receiving and learning! I give my opinions so I'm open and willing to learn from yours.

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Post by Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:41 am

danyet wrote:I have read some of the books not chosen for the NT and it is clear that there were fakes
The question that pops up in my mind by reading your lines: who chose and rated them to be the real word of God? Human beings? Some years ago I read a very interesting book about the Dead Sea scrolls, I always asked myself since then, why weren't they chosen for the bibel?
Last edited by Rach on Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by jeffcox » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:45 am

Lalee:
If women agree that God is unfair then they cannot believe he is all good. If they believe that he is all good then they must believe that they have to obey men. Therefore, a woman cannot be a believer in God and beleive that they are equal to men!

I am an athiest. No, I don't pray to God even in moments of difficulty. I do believe in the people around me and in my own ability to solve my problems and get through such situations. Don't worry, I've never met a believer in God who belives in atheism!

I do not despise God, I cannot despise what does not exist! I think 'hold the idea of Him in contempt' would be a better choice of words.
Contempt: lack of respect or reverence for something; to dislike; a feeling of resentment or bitterness

But then, I am bombarded with how much people love Him that I feel I am equally entitled to say how much
I dislike the idea of Him.

Anyway, I love your ideas and the fact that we can debate them. I hope that my comments do not offend you, or my choice of expression. If I did, it was not my intention.

It's great to debate these issues, I'm learning a lot from everybody's comments.

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:01 am

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: When is the end to you?
Well there's no end to me. Although when we die on this earth, it's "the end" like a human being.
That means you don't believe in the Judgment Day? :?

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Post by Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:10 am

jeffcox wrote:Anyway, I love your ideas and the fact that we can debate them. I hope that my comments do not offend you, or my choice of expression.
Yeah, sometimes it's not so easy to find the right words in issues that really mean a big deal to others, and insulting someone is very far from what you meant. I'm really struggling sometimes to find the right words, and so I'm learning a lot from you guys in this forum. - Sorry, off topic - :lol:

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:13 am

danyet wrote:I have already told you where the proof is that the hebrew Bible has not been changed in at least 2500 - 3000 years by as much as a letter...twice! Yet you still all argue this point.
Where's your proof? *Phhbbbtttssssss* :twisted:
danyet wrote:There is no question by serious minds that the Hebew Bible is unchanged.
We're talking about the translations, dude. And I'm challenging your view on the real Bible in Hebrew, too. Since Lalee said it's hard to understand God because our IQ is limited unlike his, how do you know those men understood his wills? Their knowledge was limited; therefore, how sure are you to say they'd understood everything? How sure are you to say God explained to them those verses word by word?
danyet wrote:The question is about the New Testament. But the only question is "why were some books chosen and others not?".
I guess you already have an answer. What's it?

danyet wrote:There are no changes in the New Testament. There are only good accurate translations and poor translations which can easily be verified by anyone by checking the original Greek New Testament. This can be done by anyone who bothers to go to their book store and look at a Greek Lexicon. All the words are numbered and explained line by line.
The real meaning in every language would lose its orignal meaning when it's translated to another language. You can't deny this fact. It happens to the Bible also. Human's mind is limited, remember?
danyet wrote:Your bickering and arguing this point only show me how little you know about the subject at hand!

And you know what they say about opinions!
Don't you dare turing on your bickering faucet! I must warn you I have sharp teeth and know how to bite. Now my claws are also sharpen.

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:20 am

jeffcox wrote:
I did use the word 'change' once and I would have prefered the word 'modified' in that I believe exact translations are not possible in all aspects of any language.
Exactly! Who knows if the Hebrew Bible is a word of God or not, but the thing is all the other translations are not. It's a work of human.

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:27 am

jeffcox wrote:
I do not despise God, I cannot despise what does not exist!
My aunt once told me that one cannot make a certain statement of something he is uncertain. Life is a mystery; there are so many things that we cannot be able to prove yet because of our limited knowledge. We can't even cure cancer, for crying out loud. Or humans once thought the world was flat until some dude proved it wrong. Who knows in the future that we could prove the existence of God.... by science.

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:29 am

Rach wrote:
danyet wrote:I have read some of the books not chosen for the NT and it is clear that there were fakes
The question that pops up in my mind by reading your lines: who chose and rated them to be the real word of God? Human beings? Some years ago I read a very interesting book about the Dead Sea scrolls, I always asked myself since then, why weren't they chosen for the bibel?
What's it about?

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Post by jeffcox » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:17 am

LennyeTran:

it's all a question of belief.
Provide evidence for or against... it all comes down to belief.

I believe that God does not exist. Therefore, I make my comments based on what I believe, as do those who believe.

As for the Dead Sea Scrolls, I hope Danyet could shed some light on that. He has great knowledge and I enjoy learning from him.

By the way, I love your style... so... masterful and prrrr... meowwww :wink: I bet your claws really are sharp.

Danyet, a question for you: who said, or where is it said, that the Bible is the Word of God? I mean, is it the Bible itself that says this? Was this said in the Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible, too? If there is no concrete proof that God exists, then there is no concrete proof that it is the Word of God, is there?

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:48 am

jeffcox wrote:LennyeTran:

it's all a question of belief.
Provide evidence for or against... it all comes down to belief.

I believe that God does not exist. Therefore, I make my comments based on what I believe, as do those who believe.
:shock: Now, now, now, now, are you contradicting yourself? Some people believe in God without proof because they "know" he's up there; therefore, they don't want proof. Some people don't believe in God because they think he's not existed, like you said he isn't, since they need proof of God's existence to believe, and so do you. You haven't seen or felt him in your heart. Therefore, you don't believe in something when you can't see its existence. How does it all come down to belief when you don't know if God's existed or not? :? :?

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Post by jeffcox » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:18 am

We all have beliefs. I call myself an athiest because I don't believe in God. I do believe in people. I believe people are good and bad, and it has nothing to do with any God or Devil!

Good point, I did contradict myself a little. I chose the wrong word. Well, it was 2:30 in the morning and I should have been sleeping and my brain was already trying to :roll: .

When I said I believe that God does not exist, I meant that I trust my feelings and opinion on this matter, as in the second definition below. Perhaps I should have said: I assert that God does not exist.

▶an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
▶a firmly held opinion or conviction.

:?

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Post by Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:13 pm

LennyeTran wrote:What's it about?
In this book the autor assumed the scrolls being written by Essenic priests, there was a community of Essenes not far away from the cavaties where the scrolls were found. As far as I remember about 800 scrolls and text fragments were found, a few of them are the oldest hebreic bible manuscripts ever found, they are all dated between 300 bc and 100 ad. Some of the textes are very "heretic" (as the church would call them;-), because the content comes from the Gnostizism, a religious movement that was working against the authorities of its time. For example, they believed everybody can achieve resurrection, very heretic for itself;-). Or they teached that everybody is able to contact Him, no priests needed;-), what a dreadful thought for every church. A proverb of the scrolls that I remember: "The house of God is not made of stone". I really love that one;-).

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:22 pm

jeffcox wrote:We all have beliefs. I call myself an athiest because I don't believe in God. I do believe in people. I believe people are good and bad, and it has nothing to do with any God or Devil!

Good point, I did contradict myself a little. I chose the wrong word. Well, it was 2:30 in the morning and I should have been sleeping and my brain was already trying to :roll: .

When I said I believe that God does not exist, I meant that I trust my feelings and opinion on this matter, as in the second definition below. Perhaps I should have said: I assert that God does not exist.

▶an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
▶a firmly held opinion or conviction.

:?
So are you saying you wouldn't believe in God even if science or whatever could prove God's existence?

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Post by Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:25 pm

LennyeTran wrote:Who knows in the future that we could prove the existence of God.... by science.
Yeah, a very interesting thought. I do not believe in God either in the way probably most religious people do, I mean in that "personalized" manner. Then I'm perhaps atheistic, too? I have no idea. But I think we all believe in something, if it's only life for itself, the nature, the humans or whatever, then perhaps atheism doesn't exist at all?
Last edited by Rach on Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:29 pm

jeffcox wrote:If there is no concrete proof that God exists,
:mrgreen: Well, where is the concrete proof that God does not exist? :lol:

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:36 pm

Rach wrote: For example, they believed everybody can achieve resurrection, very heretic for itself;-). Or they teached that everybody is able to contact Him, no priests needed;-), what a dreadful thought for every church. A proverb of the scrolls that I remember: "The house of God is not made of stone". I really love that one;-).
Yeah, they don't believe in reincarnation because it's a very dangerous idea. If one could come back one life after another, what would be the point of the Judgement Day? What would be the point of believing in Jesus as a savior? Etc.

I remember when I was a little kid and started to learn how to read. I would read anything I found in my house. At that time, my family and my cousin's family were living together. My aunt and uncle had a whole bookcase of books about Christianity, ranging from children level to adult level. I loved reading those children books because they had cute pictures, especially the Old Testament book with its cute pictures.

I remember the first part of the Old Testament had pictures of humans getting punished for worshipping cows, objects, building skycrapers up to the sky, etc. As I grew older, I realized it was people of different religions who got punished in that Old Testament. How ironic! Getting punished because of worshipping different religions.

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Post by Danyet » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:36 pm

LennyeTran wrote:
danyet wrote:I have already told you where the proof is that the hebrew Bible has not been changed in at least 2500 - 3000 years by as much as a letter...twice! Yet you still all argue this point.
Where's your proof? *Phhbbbtttssssss* :twisted:
Google The Dead Sea Scrols;;;;;;;I won't say it again.



You are right about translations. That is why there are different brands of Christianity. But They all agree on the basics.
This the reason that you will not find me preaching. Even I am not sure of certain things.

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:41 pm

Rach wrote: But I think we all believe in something, if it's only life for itself, the nature, the humans or whatever, then perhaps atheism doesn't exist at all?
This is exactly why I don't think there's no such thing as atheism. By definition, atheism is

Atheism:

–noun 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

If you believe there is no God, then by definition it's atheism. However, you "believe," so how could it be a "non-belief" at all? You do believe in something. It's just that it's not God. Buddhists don't believe in God, but people do call it a "religion." Therefore, atheism, by all means, is a religion to me, a religion of not believing in God. :twisted:

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Post by Danyet » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:41 pm

jeffcox wrote:
I did use the word 'change' once and I would have prefered the word 'modified' in that I believe exact translations are not possible in all aspects of any language.
Part of the reason for my post on "change' is for the benefit of those in the Muslims Middle East forum who believe that the Bible was changed by the Jews. This is clearly NOT THE CASE.

This is an extremely important for Muslims because if the Bible was not change then it proves Mohammed was a fake!

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Post by Rach » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:17 am

LennyeTran wrote:Yeah, they don't believe in reincarnation because it's a very dangerous idea. If one could come back one life after another, what would be the point of the Judgement Day? What would be the point of believing in Jesus as a savior? Etc.
Exactly :wink:. The catholic church in the first centuries actually believed in reincarnation, a fact that really surprised me. They changed it in some strange council, don't remember when this happened exactly. The Essenes believed in reincarnation, too, and because some historians assume a link between Jesus and the Essenes, I really believe that what is written in the bible or part of the teaching of today's christian churches, is not quite the same that Jesus actually teached.
How ironic! Getting punished because of worshipping different religions.
Yeah, it's very sad. So much people got killed (or still get killed) in the name of God/Allah or however they call him. In the name of god... how ironic.

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Post by MissLT » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:23 am

Rach wrote: Exactly :wink:. The catholic church in the first centuries actually believed in reincarnation, a fact that really surprised me. They changed it in some strange council, don't remember when this happened exactly.
I remember asking my teacher why. He said it was because of money. And he laughed. So I'm not quite sure if he was joking about it or it was real true. :?

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Post by jeffcox » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:34 am

I think that there is no God. That is my statement.
Call it belief, call it opinion... call it what you will. I'm not going to fight over the exact wording as I'm a self-confessed lethargic non-believer.

As far as I am concerned, there is no God. I think that qualifies me as a trainee athieist! :?

LennyeTran: If God existed, I really wouldn't like him anyway. I've seen too much pain and suffering to believe that it's all for our 'spiritual good'. And even then, I've lived a pretty comfortable life.

When people can't explain what happens in life through the Bible, they say 'the ways of God are beyond those who are below Him' or some such idea.

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Post by Rach » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:42 am

LennyeTran wrote:I remember asking my teacher why. He said it was because of money. And he laughed. So I'm not quite sure if he was joking about it or it was real true. :?
Wasn't it everything about money in the church? :lol: I think you have pointed out the reasons very good, if there was such a thing like reincarnation, why should anybody need Jesus as a saviour? I looked what Wikipedia sais to all that and I found that council, it was the second council of Constantinople:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_and_reincarnation

Origen, an early Christian theologian who lived during the third century, wrote that "The soul has neither beginning nor end. [They] come into this world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defeats of their previous existence" (De Principiis). This belief was not unique to Origen; early Christians believed that the soul exists prior to the conception and birth of a person, a belief that many then-popular variants of Greek philosophy accepted....

In AD 553, more than three hundred years after Origen's death, the Emperor Justinian issued an edict against Origen, whose writings had by then become very divisive, and convened the Second Council of Constantinople. This Council issued "The Anathemas Against Origen". The first sentence reads, "If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema."....

The decision of the Second Council of Constantinople regarding the pre-existence of souls has never been disputed since by traditional Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant theologians and mainstream denominations.

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Post by Danyet » Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:49 am

What the Catholic councils agreed to or disagreed on is of little importance to Christianity because they are not an authority on Christianity. They are simply a political organization as corupt as anything else.

CHristianity is between one person and his Creator. That's all!

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Post by Lalee » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:08 pm

jeffcox wrote: Anyway, I love your ideas and the fact that we can debate them. I hope that my comments do not offend you, or my choice of expression. If I did, it was not my intention.
It's great to debate these issues, I'm learning a lot from everybody's comments.
Jeff, your comments never offended me so don't worry. Actually it's interesting to know how some people think about God.

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Post by Lalee » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:11 pm

LennyeTran wrote: That means you don't believe in the Judgment Day? :?
Of course I do. That's written in the Bible. The Judgment Day is not the end. You know that our souls are eternal, right? So if our body dies, our souls have to go somewhere and live in that place forever. So what's the end? I'd say there's no end.

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Post by Danyet » Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:06 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: That means you don't believe in the Judgment Day? :?
Of course I do. That's written in the Bible. The Judgment Day is not the end. You know that our souls are eternal, right? So if our body dies, our souls have to go somewhere and live in that place forever. So what's the end? I'd say there's no end.
Nowhere in the Bible is it written that the soul is immortal. It is written that "The soul that sinneth dies"!!!


Your idea that the soul lives forever is from Greek pagans and adopted by the Roman Catholics in the 3rd century.

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Post by Lalee » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:19 pm

danyet wrote: Nowhere in the Bible is it written that the soul is immortal. It is written that "The soul that sinneth dies"!!!
Your idea that the soul lives forever is from Greek pagans and adopted by the Roman Catholics in the 3rd century.
Well I was referring to the spirit. To me soul and spirit mean pretty much the same thing but according the Bible, it seems they're different since it mentions both, soul and spirit. For example:
Genesis 2,7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Also they say "The holy Spirit" and not "the holy soul."
The spirit originates from the breath of God when He created Adam and that's why it's eternal.
If the spirit were not be eternal, they wouldn't be anything for us after we die here.

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Post by Danyet » Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:45 am

That is my point. There is nothing for us when we die. The Bible clearly tells us this. We have to wait for the Resurection.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10, NIV. "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished;
Read this:
http://en.bibleinfo.com/topics/topic.html?id=55

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Post by Danyet » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:02 am

Lalee wrote: For example:
Genesis 2,7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
You must go to the original Hebrew to ubderstand this correctly.
The Hebrew word for 'soul' is simply 'living being' and is also used for animals. Animals are souls!
Man is a soul!

The Hebrew word for "spirit" is "nephesh" and it has the meaning "breath".

Any idea that the soul is immortal is preconceived.
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Post by Lalee » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:07 am

danyet wrote:You must go to the original Hebrew to ubderstand this correctly.
The Hebrew word for 'soul' is simply 'living being' and is also used for animals. Animals are souls!
Man is a soul!

The Hebrew word for "spirit" is "nephesh" and it has the meaning "breath".

Any idea that the soul is immortal is preconceived.
So there's a difference between soul and spirit, right?

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Post by jeffcox » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:35 pm

The body and the soul are one. The soul is our affections, memory and reason.

These would be forgotten in reincarnation, I would think.

The Spirit is the 'higher plane' and the one that is linked to the Spirit of God. It is the Spirit that must acknowledge God, I think.

If there were to be any life after death, it would have to be on the Spiritual plane.

I have one more question refering to "The Word of God"

If God punished humanity for creating the Tower of Babel and divided the people into languages so that they could not communicate...

How can we believe the Word of God is THE Word of God? Surely, the Word He gave to those was only intended for those people, since he knew they would not be able to communicate it well to any others who spoke a different language.

Therefore, only those who understood the words God used would be able to follow God's teachings. What happens to the rest of the people?

Just an idea to consider!

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Post by Danyet » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:58 pm

jeffcox wrote:
Therefore, only those who understood the words God used would be able to follow God's teachings. What happens to the rest of the people?

Just an idea to consider!
The short answer is that Yahweh will judge everyone on what was in their hearts.
It does not matter what they knew or understood. If they were truly trying to be decent life forms they will be accepted by Yahweh. He will judge. If you believe that Yahweh is “good” then you should have no problem accepting His judgment.



Relating to The Tower Of Babel:

That is exactly what happened! God chose to communicate His plan with one man. Abraham and his descendants, Israel and those who "spiritually" belong to the the group "descendants of Abraham".

This was relatively shortly after the Great Flood and after the time of the Tower of Babel.

Through Abraham and his descendants, Yahweh would keep in touch with the world until the time of the Gentiles, now, when everyone has access to Him.

After the Flood a man named Nimrod became powerful and built a great city in Mesopotamia. He declared himself a god and had an incestuous relationship with his mother. The people that still remembered Yahweh killed Nimrod and cut him up into pieces.

The life of Nimrod is the founding story behind most pagan religions in the Middle East and Europe.





The most famous name from antiquity after the flood, from the pagan perspective, was the Biblical character Nimrod who was responsible for the events that led to the division of mankind into the hands of the “sons of God.”

Nimrod is credited in Genesis as being “a mighty warrior on the earth” and “a mighty hunter before the Lord.” He is known as the first “empire builder” and through force of conquest he established his empire over the whole of Mesopotamia.

According to the Bible he first ruled from the cities of Babel, Erech, Accad and Calneh in southern Mesopotamia, and then he moved north and built the cities of Ninevah, Reheboth-Ir, Caleh and Resen.


According to Josephus it was under the authority of Nimrod that mankind attempted to build the blasphemous Tower of Babel.

The role of Nimrod in attempting to building a massive skyscraper to heaven makes sense only with the understanding that Nimrod was a worshiper and follower of the chief of the "sons of God" that we know as Satan. The Tower of Babel was an attempt to gain for Satan what Satan desired according to Isaiah 14:13-14,
“You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’”

Much of humanity was forcefully united under Nimrod, and with him as the authority mankind began to build the rebellious monument known as the Tower of Babel. To remedy the situation God decreed the establishment of different languages and the division of mankind to the seventy angelic powers to manage the affairs of the earth.

Instead of being united against the Creator, humanity would now be divided against the Creator, which would allow for God to continue with His redemptive plan for all humanity, through His own nation Israel.
http://www.redmoonrising.com/worldpowers/awpII.htm

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Post by jeffcox » Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:25 am

Thanks Danyet. Some information I already knew, some is new.

Your answer raises two more questions:

If Yahweh, or whatever name is given to the One, understands that you are good, then do you really need to understand His Word? If not, then the fact that you have to recognize and accept him is a fickle wish of His. His desire to be the One. I mean, that's so egoistic and ... human! That's really, really HUMAN.

If God was all Great and Forgiving, and beyond any human vices, then it wouldn't matter if we worship other gods, because they are all Him; the One God. Being good for no reason is much better than being good because you get a reward or you're afraid of 'hell' or other such punishments.

He was to continue his redemptive plan through Israel... so Israel was to spread the Word - that means we could never really understand God... or that Israel was a new beginning and the rest of us do the best we can without Him?

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:21 am

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: That means you don't believe in the Judgment Day? :?
Of course I do. That's written in the Bible. The Judgment Day is not the end. You know that our souls are eternal, right? So if our body dies, our souls have to go somewhere and live in that place forever. So what's the end? I'd say there's no end.
Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: That means you don't believe in the Judgment Day? :?
Of course I do. That's written in the Bible. The Judgment Day is not the end. You know that our souls are eternal, right? So if our body dies, our souls have to go somewhere and live in that place forever. So what's the end? I'd say there's no end.
Well, it's the end to me since the day you're judged is the day you'd be free from sins. If you would become another person or whatever you would be with no sin, then how could it not be the end? :wink:

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Re: About Bible .

Post by sweethuman » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:48 am

byron wrote: Then there is the Koran which incorporates some of both and post dates Mohammed.
The koran has nothing at all to do with the Bible. The Koran contradicts the Bible and was written by a mass murderer and his scribes, Mohammed. It was written some 600 years after the life of Jesus.[/quote]

You are not allowed to say bad of any religion or any religious book. Just talk about your religion

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Krisi
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Re: Religion - About Bible

Post by Krisi » Mon May 25, 2015 12:46 pm

I think we can only speak based on our religious belief. I am not in a position to speak (anything of whatever sort) about other religion because it is known to all that from the time we opened our eyes to the religion we believe in, we are always taught to behave in accordance to our religious teachings, (this teachings and learning will go on until there is life on earth).

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Re: Religion

Post by Krisi » Mon May 25, 2015 1:16 pm

A friend I have known had in mind that every individual she meets who is a believer/follower of another religion has the intention of converting her to another religion. This is because her mind has been set to convince other people to join her religion.

If you're a God believer, I understand that we believe in One God.

Have a nice day!

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Re: Religion

Post by Krisi » Wed May 27, 2015 1:57 pm

respect.
be heedful of what you say when it comes to religion.

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Re: About Bible .

Post by Krisi » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:56 pm

byron wrote:...
In English society it is said that there are two things you never discuss in a Pub (Bar) one is religion the other is politics.
I think this is true.
1. One can only clearly talk about his/her own religion because that's the only religion (s)he knows well. But, at some point in the future might lead to a never ending conflict with those people who are a believer of another.
2. In politics, each one seems to prove that they are better than the others. Who is fool and who is not!
Only to prove in the end that we are all living in the jungle and must therefore follow one king... :lol: :lol:

this is why further discussion of any related topic (as above) will just lead to a never ending debate and conflict.

things just go out of shape and proportion so it has to stop somewhere... :roll:

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