About Bible

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MissLT
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Post by MissLT » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:46 am

How have you been, by the way? Still the States? :wink:

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Post by Danyet » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:54 am

Still here for the time being!

Anyway I couldn't help it! That Brian guy makes no sense at all. Why does he even still go to mass? He has no business making comments on Lalee's posts like that.
Hey Brian....go bake a cake or something. :)

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Post by MissLT » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:59 am

danyet wrote:Still here for the time being!

Anyway I couldn't help it! That Brian guy makes no sense at all. Why does he even still go to mass? He has no business making comments on Lalee's posts like that.
Hey Brian....go bake a cake or something. :)
Ahem ahem ahem, Lalee's posts only? You're telling me you don't read mine?!??!?!?! Don't make me scratch your eyes out. :twisted:

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Post by Lalee » Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:00 am

danyet wrote: Hey Brian....go bake a cake or something. :)
:lol: :lol:

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Post by Admiral » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:30 am

Brian is not the real idiot here.

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Post by MissLT » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:26 pm

Admiral wrote:Brian is not the real idiot here.
If you have nothing to talk about the Bible, I suggest you to go elsewhere or PM Danyet for your personal vendetta. I don't have much time to go further on with this nonsense attack. You've having this little message as a warning.

Do not ruin the thread and make it locked with your selfish little thought, okay. Thank you so much.

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Post by Danyet » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:22 am

The thing that makes the Bible so unique is its historical value. So far the Bible has given many details of ancient life and customs.
Even things written about in the Bible that seemed to be improbable to modern science and historians has eventually been proven to be correct.

One example is the Biblical story of a particular battle between Israelites and Assyrians. The Assyrians had amassed a great army that vastly outnumbered the Israelites. The Israelites feared for their own destruction. However, the Bible states that "the angel of Yahwey went out and in one night slew 85,000 Assyrian soldiers" thereby saving Israel. (I am not sure of the exact number but it was unbelievably large.)

Modern day historians did not believe this story until recently when archeologists found a stone tablet with the legal and royal writings from the king of Assyria on it.
This stone tablet told the same story that the Bible told, except that it was from the Assyrians point of view. It stated that the Assyrian king had the Israelites out numbered but decided to withdraw from the battle with the Israelite because 85,000 of his soldiers died from a plauge in one night.

There are many such stories as this in the Bible. Little slices of ancient life. And predictions that have apparently come true. I find them quite fascinating.

There! Are you happy Lennye? The thread is back on track now.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:25 am

Muaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Of course, I am! :wink:

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Post by jeffcox » Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:37 am

danyet, your last post shows how normal, scientific events were explained and understood as mystical and miraculous workings of God.

It may also explain how Jesus was seen as some gift from God, but may simply have been a Mother Teresa, a person who dedicated his life to helping others.

If we consider that many stories in the bible are considered parables, and many are later explained as natural occurance instead of a miracle or mystical event, then what exactly is left to believe in?

How much of what is left proves that Jesus, or God, is anything more than superstition and over-imagination?

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Post by Danyet » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:17 am

jeffcox wrote:danyet, your last post shows how normal, scientific events were explained and understood as mystical and miraculous workings of God.
My post explained nothing of the sort. I did not attempt to explain how 85,000 men died of a mysterious disease that killed them all in one night. I seriously doubt that science has a proper explanation either!

You can all draw your own conclusions how to explain these occurrences.

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Post by Shazzam » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:21 am

danyet wrote:
jeffcox wrote:danyet, your last post shows how normal, scientific events were explained and understood as mystical and miraculous workings of God.
My post explained nothing of the sort. I did not attempt to explain how 85,000 men died of a mysterious disease that killed them all in one night. I seriously doubt that science has a proper explanation either!

You can all draw your own conclusions how to explain these occurrences.
Applause! 8) :D

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Post by jeffcox » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:42 pm

You could question the idea of 'in one night'.

Many languages have an expression such as in Engish 'overnight' which is often used for something that happens suddenly or very quickly. It doesn't really have to be taken literally to mean during one night only.

And your text does indicate that many events could have a logical explanation.

Again, it's a question of faith. And, I repeat that it is highly improbable, if not impossible, that you could change someone's religious faith through logical argument.

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Post by Danyet » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:44 pm

It matters not whether there are logical scientific reasons or not. That was not the point i was making!!
The point is --- that at one time Biblical stories were simply dismissed as fables by science --- but modern archeology has proven the stories to be accurate in every detail time and time again.

The book covers thousands of years of history and is probably the most important document available to us. For generations it was painstakingly recited and remembered and then painstakingly copied. The Dead Sea Scrolls proved how accurate it has been copied.

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Post by jeffcox » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:07 pm

Of this, I agree with you. It's an invaluable historical document.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:40 pm

But I don't see it as a big deal, though, big D. The Bible was written by men. Therefore, it's not a big surprise that it has historical facts in it. :?

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:43 pm

LennyeTran wrote: Because to him they were indeed sinners. From what I know about the Bible, only Jesus was allowed to join God in heaven without being judged. He was born pure from all sins. Hence, he was a savior to guide people out of their sins.
Very good!
LennyeTran wrote: My being nice is not about the fake talks, the let's make love not wars ~. My being nice is thou shalt not murder or whatever the ten commandments are. Or a little more to it. A good conscience, good judgement, good common sense, you know.
I know what you mean but what I was trying to say is that most people think that Jesus' teaching is all about being a good person, that's why they always try to do good if they want to have a good relation with God. They're like, "Today I've been such a nice person. I did this, I did that" so they feel as if God is proud of them for what they did.
Sometimes when I ask people, "How can someone go to heaven?" They usually say, "You have to be a good person if you want to enter there."
Do you understand what I was getting at?
Now I'm not saying that it's bad to do good for others. But what's wrong is to expect to have a reward from God for doing such things like in this case would be going to heaven.
As for the 10 commandments, read this:
Romans 3, 28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

And there are many similar verses like that one.

LennyeTran wrote: This is why I said a nice person is already a half Christian. And I don't see anything is wrong with not recognizing Jesus as a savior. I mean, if you live a life with no regret, no shame, no whatsoever, do you need someone to tell you that you're a sinner? I mean, what's the use of living a life without any harm done and being called a sinner?
Most people see a Christian like a nice person so I know what you're trying to say. If you meet someone who tells you he is a Christian but you know this person has killed someone, how would you see him? You wouldn't see him as a real Christian, right?
I wouldn't see him as one either.
After you receive salvation, in the Bible says that you're led by the Holy Spirit and I don't think the Holy Spirit will let you do such thing.
Also I don't think a real Christian would do it either since he knows what Jesus did for him. Now let's suppose he does it. Then that would be a problem between him and God. God gave him such person the chance to know the truth about the Gospel and get saved so what that person is supposed to do is sharing what he knows about the Gospel to others and not be around killing people.


LennyeTran wrote:Why would they have to be in hell to feel all ther remorse that they didn't recognize Jesus? Doesn't that mean God likes to punish more than judging you for who you are? :twisted: And a bit of a control freak, I might say. Punish those who don't believe in his work....
God doesn't judge you for who you are. If He did that, I think anyone would be able to enter heaven.
I know it's hard to understand Him but what can we do? For example, can we understand someone whose IQ is beyond ours? A normal person's IQ is..how much? Between 90-100? Now let's say that God has an unlimited IQ. How can we understand Him? There's a way to do it though. It's by throwing away our own beliefs and thoughts.

If He tells us something, I think it's for our own good so I guess it's better to follow Him even when it's hard to understand with our own logic.
Isaiah 29,16
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
"He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter,
"He knows nothing"?


All people want to live the way the want and don't want anyone to interfere in their lives that's why most of them don't want to have anything to do with God or any religion.
But I think it's better to have something rather than nothing, you know?
Last edited by Lalee on Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:23 pm

LennyeTran wrote:Why would God send Jesus to help humans with their sins when he alread knew they would end up repeating their sins? So was Jesus here just to tell people how sinful they were and not in a mean of a second chance for humans?:?

Jesus' sacrifice is eternal. Imagine Jesus dying again and again for the sins that all people commit everyday. Wouldn't that be stupid?
Jesus' death needs to be accepted by faith believing in what God says rather than what our eyes see.
To God there's only one sin that leads people to hell. It's Adam's sin.
Romans 5, 12-13
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So when Jesus came and died, He washed all our sins away. Although we can see the world full of sin, to God a person who believes what He says and accepts Jesus' without caring about his own logic and thoughts, then that person has no sin to God.
I'd explain it better through the old testament but I think it would be too much. People here think I'm preaching or something, you know?
LennyeTran wrote: It doesn't matter what we've done?
Well it seems that to God it doesn't matter too much because He sees us in a different way that we see ourselves. Even if you were a little girl, He'd see you as a sinner because of Adam's sin.
Now after you know the truth about the Gospel, then it does matter how you live before God.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:21 pm

Lalee wrote: I know what you mean but what I was trying to say is that most people think that Jesus' teaching is all about being a good person, that's why they always try to do good if they want to have a good relation with God.
I still can't see the difference, you know. Jesus was here to wash our sins away. He was here to preach us that we were sinners and should repent our sins. He was here to preach us to love and all.

He's well-known even to the non-Christians because of the teaching give the other cheek to your enemy, so both of your cheeks would be evenly slapped. It carries many hidden messages in that story. Being tolerant even to the ignorants, peace within thou, calm, forgiveness, etc. You don't get all that from a not nice person or a Christian who doesn't understand his teaching.

Being nice and being Christian goes hand in hand. You're understood to be nice if you understand his teaching. It's a given; no question asked here. However, if you're a nice person, you're required to understand his teaching to be saved. Hence, this part I don't get.
Lalee wrote: But what's wrong is to expect to have a reward from God for doing such things like in this case would be going to heaven.
Why not? Going to heaven is not a reward to me. It's what you deserve. And if you live your life without shame, remorse, regret or anything, why don't you deserve to go to heaven?

Lalee wrote:Most people see a Christian like a nice person so I know what you're trying to say. If you meet someone who tells you he is a Christian but you know this person has killed someone, how would you see him? You wouldn't see him as a real Christian, right?
I wouldn't see him as one either.
After you receive salvation, in the Bible says that you're led by the Holy Spirit and I don't think the Holy Spirit will let you do such thing.
Also I don't think a real Christian would do it either since he knows what Jesus did for him. Now let's suppose he does it. Then that would be a problem between him and God. God gave him such person the chance to know the truth about the Gospel and get saved so what that person is supposed to do is sharing what he knows about the Gospel to others and not be around killing people.
I don't think you've answered my question in this part. :?

Lalee wrote:God doesn't judge you for who you are. If He did that, I think anyone would be able to enter heaven.
I don't agree with this. If he judged you for who you were, then less people would be allowed to heaven. Christians said Christians would be saved if they asked for forgiveness and acknowledged Jesus despite what they did. That's why I've seen people go to Church every week to confess. And what do you know, the next day they've committed the same sin.

So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus? And why would a less nice Christian go to heaven because he acknowledged Jesus? I thought Jesus died for our sins. Doesn't that mean he died for ignorants who didn't acknowledge him, if this is a sin? How come it's still a sin if people don't acknowledge Jesus? :?


Lalee wrote:I know it's hard to understand Him but what can we do? For example, can we understand someone whose IQ is beyond ours? A normal person's IQ is..how much? Between 90-100? Now let's say that God has an inlimited IQ. How can we understand Him? There's a way to do it though. It's by throwing away our own beliefs and thoughts.
Yes, you may do that. But the problem is people don't even know how wise or powerful God really is. The Bible was written by men. How sure are you to say that they indeed didn't change a bit to suit themselves?

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:27 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:Why would God send Jesus to help humans with their sins when he alread knew they would end up repeating their sins? So was Jesus here just to tell people how sinful they were and not in a mean of a second chance for humans?:?

Jesus' sacrifice is eternal. Imagine Jesus dying again and again for the sins that all people commit everyday. Wouldn't that be stupid?
Jesus' death needs to be accepted by faith believing in what God says rather than what our eyes see.
To God there's only one sin that leads people to hell. It's Adam's sin.
Oh, I see. So in shorts, disobedience is our sin. And not acknowledging Jesus as a savior means we've disobeyed God. And that's why it's a sin, right? :?

Admiral

Post by Admiral » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:03 pm

yes! According to religion, Jesus (as God's son or as a prophet) has come to make people clear that God exists and that we have to believe in him.

If we look at the philosophical side: Work gives you money and demands you setting time in it, partner give you love and demands a love fitting to him/her, parents give you love and they don't demand anything from you. (but you still fight with your parents sometimes, so it's not ideal)
And as the parent's love is true love, the philosophic idea is: Love is the only thing without demanding, so the ideal love would be the love without fight.
That is God, an object which all people love without demanding, the ideal of love. :lol:

So we should thank Jesus...

Hey, I don't believe in God. This is only my own explanation why people believe in Jesus and God and religion.

remember, I'm marxist.

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Post by Danyet » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:34 am

So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus?
He would not necessariy be excluded from heaven. The actual truth about this is clouded. Many christians even preachers do not understand the scriptures.

Many christians do not believe in a place called hell either. Hell is simply a metaphor for not receiving immortallity. Also, the physical place called hell is an invention of the pagan Greeks and adopted into christian beliefs through the corrupted Catholic church of Rome.

Make no mistake: The christian god Yahwey would not condemn any poor person to eternal torture by fire.

This is one of the worst catholic lies perpetrated on the masses and is an afront to the character of the creator himself!

Come on people, use your brain here! Would a god who loves us enough to devise a plan to redeem the entire world back to him actually torture those people who fall short, by burning them alive in a firey furnace but not allow them to even die to escape the pain?
Now if I thought God would actually do that I would join forces with Satan, wouldn't
you?
And, I have to wonder, how many people have joined forces with Satan because of this lie!!!

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Post by jeffcox » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:36 am

LennyeTran wrote:Being nice and being Christian goes hand in hand. You're understood to be nice if you understand his teaching. It's a given; no question asked here. However, if you're a nice person, you're required to understand his teaching to be saved. Hence, this part I don't get.
I understand your argument.

I think it's like this:
Simply being good isn't enough for God.
Recognizing God isn't enough for God.

He wants his cake and eat it! He wants everything and nothing less than that. He wants you to praise him and worship him and thank him for everything because he is God.

"Do what I say and thank me for it." is what God says... just like an army general who expects his soldiers to obey his every order with blind obedience. A soldier with less experience has no right to question a superior's order, imagine such insolence!

Is this what you're trying, so politely, to say?

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:07 am

danyet wrote:
So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus?
He would not necessariy be excluded from heaven. The actual truth about this is clouded. Many christians even preachers do not understand the scriptures.
You know I've asked my cousins and Catholics I know this same question, and they have been having a hard time to answer me.
danyet wrote:Many christians do not believe in a place called hell either. Hell is simply a metaphor for not receiving immortallity. Also, the physical place called hell is an invention of the pagan Greeks and adopted into christian beliefs through the corrupted Catholic church of Rome.
My cousin said hell in Christianity is not a hot, burning place, where devils have big pot of oil and they would throw you it it, or any horrid descriptions people have to scare kids. She said hell is a place where there is no day or night, and where you would remorse for what you did on earth. Right?

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:16 am

jeffcox wrote:
I understand your argument.

I think it's like this:
Simply being good isn't enough for God.
Recognizing God isn't enough for God.
Well, it's more of simply being good isn't enough for God. Because if you acknowledge Jesus means you've obeyed him or so to say; therefore, you'll be saved. However, if you go against the teaching. You'll be damned. Being a nice, non-Christian, on the other hand, is different. It doesn't matter! You'll be damned anyway despite how good you are on earth. As I see God won't judge you, a nice non-Christian, for you'll be ended up in hell.

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Post by Danyet » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:23 am

LennyeTran wrote:
danyet wrote:
So She said hell is a place where there is no day or night, and where you would remorse for what you did on earth. Right?
Well, that is what some people say but they have to be completely wrong!

You see, the Bible states that humans were created a little "lower" than the angels. Angels are Immortal whereas humans are Mortal.
Humans receive immortallity only at the time of the great resurection at the end of the age. Eclesiastes tells us that "The dead know knothing. They have no rememberance of former times and no interaction with the living." "They sleep" "return to dust".

If this is true then they can not be in a hell or purgatory (which is another pagan/catholic idea, not Biblical).

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:25 am

But Adam and Eve were like angels, immortal, until they ate the forbidden food.... :?

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Post by Arale » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:12 am

I was very curious about The Sangreal in The Da Vinci Code. As every document used in that book is true, and so is The Sangreal. This's what I found on the internet. Is really there something hidden behind the Bible?

_Arale_

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:14 am

What's your email, Arale? I'll forward you what my cousin sent to me about the Da Vinci Code. :wink:

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Post by Arale » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:17 am

LennyeTran wrote:What's your email, Arale? I'll forward you what my cousin sent to me about the Da Vinci Code. :wink:
I'm waiting for it! Thanks! :wink:

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Post by Danyet » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:31 am

LennyeTran wrote:But Adam and Eve were like angels, immortal, until they ate the forbidden food.... :?
No. They only ate the fruit from the tree of knowlege of good and evil. It was the tree of life that was to give them immortallity. After they had eaten the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowlege of good and evil God prevented them from from gaining access to the tree of life and thereby obtaining immortallity. God could not have any more corrupted creatures with immortality!!!

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Post by Shazzam » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:53 am

danyet wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:But Adam and Eve were like angels, immortal, until they ate the forbidden food.... :?
No. They only ate the fruit from the tree of knowlege of good and evil. It was the tree of life that was to give them immortallity. After they had eaten the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowlege of good and evil God prevented them from from gaining access to the tree of life and thereby obtaining immortallity. God could not have any more corrupted creatures with immortality!!!
Is it written anywhere in the bible what the fruit was that was on the tree of life? Just curious. I know that they were tempted by the serpent to eat the apple etc but I didn't know about the tree of life.

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Post by Danyet » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:29 am

Again the answer is "No". The name of the fruit is not mentioned.

The fruit form the tree that Adam and Eve ate is not mentioned by name either.
I think it was Renaissance art that gave us the myth of the apple.

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Post by Shazzam » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:08 am

danyet wrote:Again the answer is "No". The name of the fruit is not mentioned.

The fruit form the tree that Adam and Eve ate is not mentioned by name either.
I think it was Renaissance art that gave us the myth of the apple.
SORRY!! I didn't read the whole thread so obviously you have answered this before.

Thanks for the information anyway. :roll:

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Post by Lalee » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:17 pm

LennyeTran wrote: He's well-known even to the non-Christians because of the teaching give the other cheek to your enemy, so both of your cheeks would be evenly slapped. It carries many hidden messages in that story. Being tolerant even to the ignorants, peace within thou, calm, forgiveness, etc. You don't get all that from a not nice person or a Christian who doesn't understand his teaching.
So you don't understand why a good person has to understand Jesus's teaching to get saved?
Let me copy the verse that you are referring to.
Matthew 5, 38
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Through those verses we can see that Jesus is telling us to be good and stand others even if they treat us bad. Now, are we able to do that naturally? No. Most people have a negative reaction. If someone hits them, they will just hit them back.
Jesus wanted people to realize that they were not able to keep the Law, that through Moses' Law they wouldn't be able to get saved but through Him.

Mark 10, 17
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!


According to that person, he was following the commandments well but in his heart he knew he was lacking of something that's why he came up to Jesus and asked him what he needed to do to inherit eternal life. When Jesus asked him to do a nice thing for the poor, he was not able to do it and just left. Through him, we can see that people are not able to follow all the commandments perfectly and God knows it.
This goes for the people who are under the Law: Galatians 3, 10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

LennyeTran wrote: Being nice and being Christian goes hand in hand. You're understood to be nice if you understand his teaching. It's a given; no question asked here. However, if you're a nice person, you're required to understand his teaching to be saved. Hence, this part I don't get.
I hope my explanation above made this clear.

LennyeTran wrote: Why not? Going to heaven is not a reward to me. It's what you deserve. And if you live your life without shame, remorse, regret or anything, why don't you deserve to go to heaven?
If we deserved to go there, Jesus would've never came and died. Why would God have sent him if He had known that we could enter there by ourselves without any help?
It seems that God doesn't think people deserve it.
LennyeTran wrote: I don't agree with this. If he judged you for who you were, then less people would be allowed to heaven. Christians said Christians would be saved if they asked for forgiveness and acknowledged Jesus despite what they did. That's why I've seen people go to Church every week to confess. And what do you know, the next day they've committed the same sin.
I made a mistake in my sentence, "God doesn't judge you for who you are. If He did that, I think anyone would be able to enter heaven."
Replace the "anyone" for "no one". Better now? Sorry, my bad.
As for asking forgiveness over and over again. Those people don't believe in Jesus' death truly.
If God tells them that their sins have been forgotten and washed away.. Then why do they have to ask for forgiveness again?
Hebrews 10, 17
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Now that doesn't mean that you can sin as much as you want. We're weak and most likely to commit sins and that's natural but if we're led by the Holy Spirit, our lives can be changed.
God asks us to live spiritual life not focusing on us or how weak we are but on his Word and the Gospel.
God wants people to receive Jesus' sacrifice and His word through faith.
LennyeTran wrote: So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus? And why would a less nice Christian go to heaven because he acknowledged Jesus? I thought Jesus died for our sins. Doesn't that mean he died for ignorants who didn't acknowledge him, if this is a sin? How come it's still a sin if people don't acknowledge Jesus? :?
Your question makes sense and it's logical. However, to God people who die without acknowledging Jesus as their saviour can't enter heaven. Yeah, Jesus also died for those ignorants who never accepted Him but God accepts those who know they need Jesus to present themselves before God.
God only thinks Jesus deserves to go to heaven now if Jesus advocates for people who believe in Him, then God allows such person to enter.
It's like first someone had a black heart full of sin then when he accepts Jesus' death by faith, his heart is covered with Jesus' blood so God can't see sin anymore in there. So such person is called righteous before God's eyes.

LennyeTran wrote: Yes, you may do that. But the problem is people don't even know how wise or powerful God really is. The Bible was written by men. How sure are you to say that they indeed didn't change a bit to suit themselves?
Yeah, it was written by men but all the messages and thoughts in there are God's.
It's like an illiterate persone comes to you and asks you to write down a letter for her so she dictates and you just write down all she tells you.
As for men changing it, I don't think God would allow something like that to happen.
There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.

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Post by jeffcox » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:58 pm

...However, to God people who die without acknowledging Jesus as their saviour can't enter heaven. Yeah, Jesus also died for those ignorants who never accepted Him but God accepts those who know they need Jesus to present themselves before God.
God only thinks Jesus deserves to go to heaven now if Jesus advocates for people who believe in Him, then God allows such person to enter.


In other words, the fact that we have to recognize Jesus is a capriche, a fancy of his.

I mean, if we do good all our lives, we're damned if we don't recognize Jesus. If God wants us to be good and follow His word, then that should logically be enough for a place in heaven. But no, that's not enough for Him, we have to recognize Him, through Jesus. So egoistic of Him, who Himself claims to be a jealous God... aren't those human flaws and therefore God has no right to judge us.


There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.

Hmm... I have never met anyone who believes in everything in the Bible, as it is written in the Bible. Not one person! But then, I've never met the Pope!

People choose which scriptures they like to follow and how. Plus, the interpretation of the Bible changes with every generation. People burned witches based on scripture from the Bible.

As an example:
Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Personally, I find this idea outrageous and can't understand how a woman would agree to this. We are to follow this scripture and believe that women should be subservient to men?

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Post by MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:26 am

Lalee wrote: If we deserved to go there, Jesus would've never came and died. Why would God have sent him if He had known that we could enter there by ourselves without any help?
It seems that God doesn't think people deserve it.
But I believe there are people who could go to heaven without acknowledging Jesus as a savior, though. What about Buddhist monks, rabis, or other members of any monastic orders beside Christians? Where would they go, heaven or hell? :?

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Post by MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:52 am

Lalee wrote: Yeah, it was written by men but all the messages and thoughts in there are God's.
It's like an illiterate persone comes to you and asks you to write down a letter for her so she dictates and you just write down all she tells you.
As for men changing it, I don't think God would allow something like that to happen.
If you had no faith that those people would do anything good in the first place, would you trust them to do something for you? And if you had no one else to do it beside them, how sure could you say they wouldn't change a thing?

As you said, humans can do no good. That's why we need to acknowledge Jesus to be saved. If we were born with sins and can't get rid of them, changing something in the Bible wouldn't make a big deal, right? It's a part of our already-born-with sins. Therefore, we'd get the chance to ask for forgiveness at the end, anyway. Right?
Lalee wrote:There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.
Since the dawn of life humans have already been believing in something. We're spiritual species. We're too fragile to deal with this cruel world. And especially when we understand life and death life is even harder. For example, when our loved ones get hurt or are about to pass away or other problems, we'll pray to something more powerful than us just in hope that there would be a miracle.

Imagine if someone understood all this and used it on you to persuade you to believe him/her? Would you believe his/her ~ when you were desperate? I believe there'd be a big chance that you would. I never deny men who wrote the Bible were not intelligent. In fact, they were too brilliant and perspicacious to envisage what people fear and want most.

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Post by MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:03 am

jeffcox wrote:
As an example:
Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Personally, I find this idea outrageous and can't understand how a woman would agree to this. We are to follow this scripture and believe that women should be subservient to men?
There's one part in the New Testtament that is similar to this one (I can't remember it now. I'll look for it again). I read and I found it quite absurd. I pointed it to my bf and asked, "and you believe in this book?" He just rolled his eyes. :lol: :lol:

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Post by jeffcox » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:38 am

Oh, there's more!

1 Corinthians 11:8-9
"For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."


There are even more such citations of sexism agains women in the Bible.

Like I said, people choose the parts they want to believe. For this, there is no Christianism if everybody has their own dogma.

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Post by MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:45 am

This, I have to say, happens in every religion. In Buddhism, before women were considered as people who couldn't be enlightened at all. There was no way for women to become a Buddha. I did not know it until my mom told me about this. That was when I decided to give religions a bit of a reading.

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Post by jeffcox » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:00 am

Yeah, and for this reason I frown at anyone who says the Bible is the word of God. Those words are so elusive and their meaning is so fickle. :?

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Post by Lalee » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:26 pm

LennyeTran wrote:
But I believe there are people who could go to heaven without acknowledging Jesus as a savior, though. What about Buddhist monks, rabis, or other members of any monastic orders beside Christians? Where would they go, heaven or hell? :?
You're still asking the same question after I gave you all that info?? What's wrong with you? :shock: :wink:
According to the Bible, yeah those people are not allowed to heaven. It doesn't matter if it's a monk or the president or a rabi etc.
I know you don't believe it but that's how it is.

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Post by Lalee » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:37 pm

jeffcox wrote: Hmm... I have never met anyone who believes in everything in the Bible, as it is written in the Bible. Not one person! But then, I've never met the Pope!
I don't think the Pope believes in all what the Bible says.

jeffcox wrote: Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Personally, I find this idea outrageous and can't understand how a woman would agree to this. We are to follow this scripture and believe that women should be subservient to men?
I know what you mean but again people can't understand God fully or what He does.
As I said before, I think it's better to be His ally rather than His enemy.

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Post by MissLT » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:42 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:
But I believe there are people who could go to heaven without acknowledging Jesus as a savior, though. What about Buddhist monks, rabis, or other members of any monastic orders beside Christians? Where would they go, heaven or hell? :?
You're still asking the same question after I gave you all that info?? What's wrong with you? :shock: :wink:
According to the Bible, yeah those people are not allowed to heaven. It doesn't matter if it's a monk or the president or a rabi etc.
I know you don't believe it but that's how it is.
And that's why I was asking you, how sure are you to say that the Bible hasn't been changed? :wink:

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Post by Lalee » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:01 pm

LennyeTran wrote: If you had no faith that those people would do anything good in the first place, would you trust them to do something for you? And if you had no one else to do it beside them, how sure could you say they wouldn't change a thing?
As far as I know, all the books in the Bible were written by people of God like the apostles and the prophets among others. Although they were regular men, their lives were led by God. They were God-fearing men.
LennyeTran wrote: As you said, humans can do no good. That's why we need to acknowledge Jesus to be saved. If we were born with sins and can't get rid of them, changing something in the Bible wouldn't make a big deal, right? It's a part of our already-born-with sins. Therefore, we'd get the chance to ask for forgiveness at the end, anyway. Right?
I think it would make a big deal. Ask for forgiveness at the end? When at the end?

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Post by Lalee » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:07 pm

LennyeTran wrote: And that's why I was asking you, how sure are you to say that the Bible hasn't been changed? :wink:
I think I told you why I am sure of that in one of my previous posts.
Too bad I can't prove to you that the Bible hasn't been changed. :(

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Post by MissLT » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:21 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: If you had no faith that those people would do anything good in the first place, would you trust them to do something for you? And if you had no one else to do it beside them, how sure could you say they wouldn't change a thing?
As far as I know, all the books in the Bible were written by people of God like the apostles and the prophets among others. Although they were regular men, their lives were led by God. They were God-fearing men.
Bible translations

As Hebrew and Greek, the original languages of the bible, have idioms and concepts not easily translated, there is an on going critical tension about whether it is better to give a word for word translation or to give a translation that gives a parallel idiom in the target language. For instance in the English language Protestant translations of the Christian bible, translations like the New Revised Standard Version and the New American Standard Version are seen as more "word for word" translations, whereas translations like the New International Version and New Living Version attempt to give relevant parallel idioms. The Living Bible and The Message are two paraphrases of the bible that try to convey the original meaning in contemporary language. The further away one gets from word to word translation, the text becomes more readable while relying more on the theological understanding of the translator. Further, both Hebrew and Greek, like some of the latin languages, use the male gender of nouns and pronouns to refer to groups that contain both sexes. This creates some difficulty in determining whether a noun should be translated using terms that refer to men only, or men and women inclusively. Some translations avoid the issue by directly translating the word using male only terminology, whereas others try to use inclusive language where the translators believe it to be appropriate. One translation that attempts to use inclusive language is the New Revised Standard Version.

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: As you said, humans can do no good. That's why we need to acknowledge Jesus to be saved. If we were born with sins and can't get rid of them, changing something in the Bible wouldn't make a big deal, right? It's a part of our already-born-with sins. Therefore, we'd get the chance to ask for forgiveness at the end, anyway. Right?
I think it would make a big deal. Ask for forgiveness at the end? When at the end?
When is the end to you?

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Post by jeffcox » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:39 pm

It has been recognized by most Bible scholars that the old testament was made up of various scrollsand before those scrolls existed, the stories were passed on by mouth, undergoing modifications through the generations and different regions.

When the scrolls were being written, the different pieces of the same story were 'patched together' into what, at that time, seemed the most logical story.

Then, when canonizing the old testament, somebody chose which scrolls were the best ones to go in - like the modern-day Harry Potter, I choose book one and book 3 - thus, undergoing more changes.

There was then one more modification when everything was translated into English.

So, three modifications at least!
And after all those modifications, who says it's the Word of God?

I really love the way that if it makes sense in the Bible, use it... if it doesn't, then it's God being more intelligent than us so we should accept it anyway, so use it. Why can't a Christian simply say, I don't understand it?

Because if they can't understand it, they cannot follow the teachings of Jesus and go to heaven. Therefore, they have to 'understand it'... because they're damned if they don't.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:53 pm

LennyeTran wrote: When is the end to you?
Well there's no end to me. Although when we die on this earth, it's "the end" like a human being.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:22 pm

jeffcox wrote: So, three modifications at least!
And after all those modifications, who says it's the Word of God?
Well I still think that the Bible is the word of God.
jeffcox wrote: I really love the way that if it makes sense in the Bible, use it... if it doesn't, then it's God being more intelligent than us so we should accept it anyway, so use it. Why can't a Christian simply say, I don't understand it?
There are some things that I'm sure Christians do not agree with what the Bible says. Let's take the verse you mentioned about women being subservient to men as an example. Most women might think that God is unfair but, can they change what it says there?
The only thing they can do is quitting church.
Some people see God as an unfair being but in the Bible says He's a just God but then again you don't trust in the Bible so...

jeffcox wrote: Because if they can't understand it, they cannot follow the teachings of Jesus and go to heaven. Therefore, they have to 'understand it'... because they're damned if they don't.
Jeff, from the way you write and express yourself about God I can tell you kind of despise Him. I do not know what your beliefs are but I'm sure when you were in hardships you've praid to God. So it doesn't matter the way you think of Him, you can't deny the fact that you need Him.
People can complain all the want about God but nothing will change.

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