About Bible

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jeffcox
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Postby jeffcox » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:00 am

Yeah, and for this reason I frown at anyone who says the Bible is the word of God. Those words are so elusive and their meaning is so fickle. :?

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Lalee
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Postby Lalee » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:26 pm

LennyeTran wrote:
But I believe there are people who could go to heaven without acknowledging Jesus as a savior, though. What about Buddhist monks, rabis, or other members of any monastic orders beside Christians? Where would they go, heaven or hell? :?

You're still asking the same question after I gave you all that info?? What's wrong with you? :shock: :wink:
According to the Bible, yeah those people are not allowed to heaven. It doesn't matter if it's a monk or the president or a rabi etc.
I know you don't believe it but that's how it is.

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Lalee
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Postby Lalee » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:37 pm

jeffcox wrote:Hmm... I have never met anyone who believes in everything in the Bible, as it is written in the Bible. Not one person! But then, I've never met the Pope!

I don't think the Pope believes in all what the Bible says.


jeffcox wrote:Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Personally, I find this idea outrageous and can't understand how a woman would agree to this. We are to follow this scripture and believe that women should be subservient to men?

I know what you mean but again people can't understand God fully or what He does.
As I said before, I think it's better to be His ally rather than His enemy.

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MissLT
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Postby MissLT » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:42 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:
But I believe there are people who could go to heaven without acknowledging Jesus as a savior, though. What about Buddhist monks, rabis, or other members of any monastic orders beside Christians? Where would they go, heaven or hell? :?

You're still asking the same question after I gave you all that info?? What's wrong with you? :shock: :wink:
According to the Bible, yeah those people are not allowed to heaven. It doesn't matter if it's a monk or the president or a rabi etc.
I know you don't believe it but that's how it is.

And that's why I was asking you, how sure are you to say that the Bible hasn't been changed? :wink:

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Lalee
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Postby Lalee » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:01 pm

LennyeTran wrote:If you had no faith that those people would do anything good in the first place, would you trust them to do something for you? And if you had no one else to do it beside them, how sure could you say they wouldn't change a thing?

As far as I know, all the books in the Bible were written by people of God like the apostles and the prophets among others. Although they were regular men, their lives were led by God. They were God-fearing men.

LennyeTran wrote:As you said, humans can do no good. That's why we need to acknowledge Jesus to be saved. If we were born with sins and can't get rid of them, changing something in the Bible wouldn't make a big deal, right? It's a part of our already-born-with sins. Therefore, we'd get the chance to ask for forgiveness at the end, anyway. Right?

I think it would make a big deal. Ask for forgiveness at the end? When at the end?

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Lalee
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Postby Lalee » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:07 pm

LennyeTran wrote:And that's why I was asking you, how sure are you to say that the Bible hasn't been changed? :wink:

I think I told you why I am sure of that in one of my previous posts.
Too bad I can't prove to you that the Bible hasn't been changed. :(

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MissLT
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Postby MissLT » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:21 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:If you had no faith that those people would do anything good in the first place, would you trust them to do something for you? And if you had no one else to do it beside them, how sure could you say they wouldn't change a thing?

As far as I know, all the books in the Bible were written by people of God like the apostles and the prophets among others. Although they were regular men, their lives were led by God. They were God-fearing men.

Bible translations

As Hebrew and Greek, the original languages of the bible, have idioms and concepts not easily translated, there is an on going critical tension about whether it is better to give a word for word translation or to give a translation that gives a parallel idiom in the target language. For instance in the English language Protestant translations of the Christian bible, translations like the New Revised Standard Version and the New American Standard Version are seen as more "word for word" translations, whereas translations like the New International Version and New Living Version attempt to give relevant parallel idioms. The Living Bible and The Message are two paraphrases of the bible that try to convey the original meaning in contemporary language. The further away one gets from word to word translation, the text becomes more readable while relying more on the theological understanding of the translator. Further, both Hebrew and Greek, like some of the latin languages, use the male gender of nouns and pronouns to refer to groups that contain both sexes. This creates some difficulty in determining whether a noun should be translated using terms that refer to men only, or men and women inclusively. Some translations avoid the issue by directly translating the word using male only terminology, whereas others try to use inclusive language where the translators believe it to be appropriate. One translation that attempts to use inclusive language is the New Revised Standard Version.


Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:As you said, humans can do no good. That's why we need to acknowledge Jesus to be saved. If we were born with sins and can't get rid of them, changing something in the Bible wouldn't make a big deal, right? It's a part of our already-born-with sins. Therefore, we'd get the chance to ask for forgiveness at the end, anyway. Right?

I think it would make a big deal. Ask for forgiveness at the end? When at the end?

When is the end to you?

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Postby jeffcox » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:39 pm

It has been recognized by most Bible scholars that the old testament was made up of various scrollsand before those scrolls existed, the stories were passed on by mouth, undergoing modifications through the generations and different regions.

When the scrolls were being written, the different pieces of the same story were 'patched together' into what, at that time, seemed the most logical story.

Then, when canonizing the old testament, somebody chose which scrolls were the best ones to go in - like the modern-day Harry Potter, I choose book one and book 3 - thus, undergoing more changes.

There was then one more modification when everything was translated into English.

So, three modifications at least!
And after all those modifications, who says it's the Word of God?

I really love the way that if it makes sense in the Bible, use it... if it doesn't, then it's God being more intelligent than us so we should accept it anyway, so use it. Why can't a Christian simply say, I don't understand it?

Because if they can't understand it, they cannot follow the teachings of Jesus and go to heaven. Therefore, they have to 'understand it'... because they're damned if they don't.

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Lalee
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Postby Lalee » Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:53 pm

LennyeTran wrote:When is the end to you?

Well there's no end to me. Although when we die on this earth, it's "the end" like a human being.

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Lalee
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Postby Lalee » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:22 pm

jeffcox wrote:So, three modifications at least!
And after all those modifications, who says it's the Word of God?

Well I still think that the Bible is the word of God.

jeffcox wrote:I really love the way that if it makes sense in the Bible, use it... if it doesn't, then it's God being more intelligent than us so we should accept it anyway, so use it. Why can't a Christian simply say, I don't understand it?

There are some things that I'm sure Christians do not agree with what the Bible says. Let's take the verse you mentioned about women being subservient to men as an example. Most women might think that God is unfair but, can they change what it says there?
The only thing they can do is quitting church.
Some people see God as an unfair being but in the Bible says He's a just God but then again you don't trust in the Bible so...


jeffcox wrote:Because if they can't understand it, they cannot follow the teachings of Jesus and go to heaven. Therefore, they have to 'understand it'... because they're damned if they don't.

Jeff, from the way you write and express yourself about God I can tell you kind of despise Him. I do not know what your beliefs are but I'm sure when you were in hardships you've praid to God. So it doesn't matter the way you think of Him, you can't deny the fact that you need Him.
People can complain all the want about God but nothing will change.

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donis
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religions

Postby donis » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:56 pm

for my opinion all religions can be only a way for god..but i know there is not any religion say about another religions bad , all religion have to respect to anothers !! but unfortunately these days i see so many peoples in the world think about like fanatic , and try to speak ill of other religions ..this is so dangerous point for future of world!!

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Danyet
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Postby Danyet » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:12 pm

I have already told you where the proof is that the hebrew Bible has not been changed in at least 2500 - 3000 years by as much as a letter...twice! Yet you still all argue this point.

There is no question by serious minds that the Hebew Bible is unchanged.

The question is about the New Testament. But the only question is "why were some books chosen and others not?".

I have read some of the books not chosen for the NT and it is clear that there were fakes just from their poorly written style.

There are no changes in the New Testament. There are only good accurate translations and poor translations which can easily be verified by anyone by checking the original Greek New Testament. This can be done by anyone who bothers to go to their book store and look at a Greek Lexicon. All the words are numbered and explained line by line.

Your bickering and arguing this point only show me how little you know about the subject at hand!

And you know what they say about opinions!

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Postby jeffcox » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:41 am

Danyet, you are correct in saying that I know little about the subject. I have never mooted this point!

I can only give my opinions and the very little knowledge I have of the bible. If this is not enough to discuss the subject, then I'm afraid that nobody would feel the incentive to research or even change their opinion.

I did use the word 'change' once and I would have prefered the word 'modified' in that I believe exact translations are not possible in all aspects of any language.

As for Greek, try translating the ancient Greek word and the English word that are generally accepted as 'know'. I have a friend who did his Masters based on the understanding of this word in Greek and this word in English. It's enough to make your eyes water! He wasn't refering to the Bible at all, his research was on Greek mythology, but the idea is transferable.

As far as my reading has produced, I have only seen that one holy book confirs and validates the originality of the last one. You may correct me on this if you have more information; I'd be very pleased to hear and study that.

As to 'anyone who bothers to...'; I can only say that my time is pretty full, and as the holy books are not my line of real interest, I have to give what little time I have to my immediate needs. It's not that I can't be bothered; it's that I have other necessities.

I am always open to your opinions, your knowledge and your corrections. I will endeavour to consider and study them all, given my limited time.

Giving opinions is worthless if you are not equally open to receiving and learning! I give my opinions so I'm open and willing to learn from yours.

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Postby Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:41 am

danyet wrote:I have read some of the books not chosen for the NT and it is clear that there were fakes
The question that pops up in my mind by reading your lines: who chose and rated them to be the real word of God? Human beings? Some years ago I read a very interesting book about the Dead Sea scrolls, I always asked myself since then, why weren't they chosen for the bibel?
Last edited by Rach on Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

jeffcox
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Postby jeffcox » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:45 am

Lalee:
If women agree that God is unfair then they cannot believe he is all good. If they believe that he is all good then they must believe that they have to obey men. Therefore, a woman cannot be a believer in God and beleive that they are equal to men!

I am an athiest. No, I don't pray to God even in moments of difficulty. I do believe in the people around me and in my own ability to solve my problems and get through such situations. Don't worry, I've never met a believer in God who belives in atheism!

I do not despise God, I cannot despise what does not exist! I think 'hold the idea of Him in contempt' would be a better choice of words.
Contempt: lack of respect or reverence for something; to dislike; a feeling of resentment or bitterness

But then, I am bombarded with how much people love Him that I feel I am equally entitled to say how much
I dislike the idea of Him.

Anyway, I love your ideas and the fact that we can debate them. I hope that my comments do not offend you, or my choice of expression. If I did, it was not my intention.

It's great to debate these issues, I'm learning a lot from everybody's comments.

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MissLT
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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:01 am

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:When is the end to you?

Well there's no end to me. Although when we die on this earth, it's "the end" like a human being.

That means you don't believe in the Judgment Day? :?

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Postby Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:10 am

jeffcox wrote:Anyway, I love your ideas and the fact that we can debate them. I hope that my comments do not offend you, or my choice of expression.

Yeah, sometimes it's not so easy to find the right words in issues that really mean a big deal to others, and insulting someone is very far from what you meant. I'm really struggling sometimes to find the right words, and so I'm learning a lot from you guys in this forum. - Sorry, off topic - :lol:

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:13 am

danyet wrote:I have already told you where the proof is that the hebrew Bible has not been changed in at least 2500 - 3000 years by as much as a letter...twice! Yet you still all argue this point.

Where's your proof? *Phhbbbtttssssss* :twisted:

danyet wrote:There is no question by serious minds that the Hebew Bible is unchanged.

We're talking about the translations, dude. And I'm challenging your view on the real Bible in Hebrew, too. Since Lalee said it's hard to understand God because our IQ is limited unlike his, how do you know those men understood his wills? Their knowledge was limited; therefore, how sure are you to say they'd understood everything? How sure are you to say God explained to them those verses word by word?

danyet wrote:The question is about the New Testament. But the only question is "why were some books chosen and others not?".

I guess you already have an answer. What's it?


danyet wrote:There are no changes in the New Testament. There are only good accurate translations and poor translations which can easily be verified by anyone by checking the original Greek New Testament. This can be done by anyone who bothers to go to their book store and look at a Greek Lexicon. All the words are numbered and explained line by line.

The real meaning in every language would lose its orignal meaning when it's translated to another language. You can't deny this fact. It happens to the Bible also. Human's mind is limited, remember?

danyet wrote:Your bickering and arguing this point only show me how little you know about the subject at hand!

And you know what they say about opinions!

Don't you dare turing on your bickering faucet! I must warn you I have sharp teeth and know how to bite. Now my claws are also sharpen.

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:20 am

jeffcox wrote:
I did use the word 'change' once and I would have prefered the word 'modified' in that I believe exact translations are not possible in all aspects of any language.

Exactly! Who knows if the Hebrew Bible is a word of God or not, but the thing is all the other translations are not. It's a work of human.

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:27 am

jeffcox wrote:
I do not despise God, I cannot despise what does not exist!

My aunt once told me that one cannot make a certain statement of something he is uncertain. Life is a mystery; there are so many things that we cannot be able to prove yet because of our limited knowledge. We can't even cure cancer, for crying out loud. Or humans once thought the world was flat until some dude proved it wrong. Who knows in the future that we could prove the existence of God.... by science.

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:29 am

Rach wrote:
danyet wrote:I have read some of the books not chosen for the NT and it is clear that there were fakes
The question that pops up in my mind by reading your lines: who chose and rated them to be the real word of God? Human beings? Some years ago I read a very interesting book about the Dead Sea scrolls, I always asked myself since then, why weren't they chosen for the bibel?

What's it about?


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