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Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:39 pm
by jeffcox
It has been recognized by most Bible scholars that the old testament was made up of various scrollsand before those scrolls existed, the stories were passed on by mouth, undergoing modifications through the generations and different regions.

When the scrolls were being written, the different pieces of the same story were 'patched together' into what, at that time, seemed the most logical story.

Then, when canonizing the old testament, somebody chose which scrolls were the best ones to go in - like the modern-day Harry Potter, I choose book one and book 3 - thus, undergoing more changes.

There was then one more modification when everything was translated into English.

So, three modifications at least!
And after all those modifications, who says it's the Word of God?

I really love the way that if it makes sense in the Bible, use it... if it doesn't, then it's God being more intelligent than us so we should accept it anyway, so use it. Why can't a Christian simply say, I don't understand it?

Because if they can't understand it, they cannot follow the teachings of Jesus and go to heaven. Therefore, they have to 'understand it'... because they're damned if they don't.

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:53 pm
by Lalee
LennyeTran wrote: When is the end to you?
Well there's no end to me. Although when we die on this earth, it's "the end" like a human being.

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:22 pm
by Lalee
jeffcox wrote: So, three modifications at least!
And after all those modifications, who says it's the Word of God?
Well I still think that the Bible is the word of God.
jeffcox wrote: I really love the way that if it makes sense in the Bible, use it... if it doesn't, then it's God being more intelligent than us so we should accept it anyway, so use it. Why can't a Christian simply say, I don't understand it?
There are some things that I'm sure Christians do not agree with what the Bible says. Let's take the verse you mentioned about women being subservient to men as an example. Most women might think that God is unfair but, can they change what it says there?
The only thing they can do is quitting church.
Some people see God as an unfair being but in the Bible says He's a just God but then again you don't trust in the Bible so...

jeffcox wrote: Because if they can't understand it, they cannot follow the teachings of Jesus and go to heaven. Therefore, they have to 'understand it'... because they're damned if they don't.
Jeff, from the way you write and express yourself about God I can tell you kind of despise Him. I do not know what your beliefs are but I'm sure when you were in hardships you've praid to God. So it doesn't matter the way you think of Him, you can't deny the fact that you need Him.
People can complain all the want about God but nothing will change.

religions

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:56 pm
by donis
for my opinion all religions can be only a way for god..but i know there is not any religion say about another religions bad , all religion have to respect to anothers !! but unfortunately these days i see so many peoples in the world think about like fanatic , and try to speak ill of other religions ..this is so dangerous point for future of world!!

Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:12 pm
by Danyet
I have already told you where the proof is that the hebrew Bible has not been changed in at least 2500 - 3000 years by as much as a letter...twice! Yet you still all argue this point.

There is no question by serious minds that the Hebew Bible is unchanged.

The question is about the New Testament. But the only question is "why were some books chosen and others not?".

I have read some of the books not chosen for the NT and it is clear that there were fakes just from their poorly written style.

There are no changes in the New Testament. There are only good accurate translations and poor translations which can easily be verified by anyone by checking the original Greek New Testament. This can be done by anyone who bothers to go to their book store and look at a Greek Lexicon. All the words are numbered and explained line by line.

Your bickering and arguing this point only show me how little you know about the subject at hand!

And you know what they say about opinions!

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:41 am
by jeffcox
Danyet, you are correct in saying that I know little about the subject. I have never mooted this point!

I can only give my opinions and the very little knowledge I have of the bible. If this is not enough to discuss the subject, then I'm afraid that nobody would feel the incentive to research or even change their opinion.

I did use the word 'change' once and I would have prefered the word 'modified' in that I believe exact translations are not possible in all aspects of any language.

As for Greek, try translating the ancient Greek word and the English word that are generally accepted as 'know'. I have a friend who did his Masters based on the understanding of this word in Greek and this word in English. It's enough to make your eyes water! He wasn't refering to the Bible at all, his research was on Greek mythology, but the idea is transferable.

As far as my reading has produced, I have only seen that one holy book confirs and validates the originality of the last one. You may correct me on this if you have more information; I'd be very pleased to hear and study that.

As to 'anyone who bothers to...'; I can only say that my time is pretty full, and as the holy books are not my line of real interest, I have to give what little time I have to my immediate needs. It's not that I can't be bothered; it's that I have other necessities.

I am always open to your opinions, your knowledge and your corrections. I will endeavour to consider and study them all, given my limited time.

Giving opinions is worthless if you are not equally open to receiving and learning! I give my opinions so I'm open and willing to learn from yours.

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:41 am
by Rach
danyet wrote:I have read some of the books not chosen for the NT and it is clear that there were fakes
The question that pops up in my mind by reading your lines: who chose and rated them to be the real word of God? Human beings? Some years ago I read a very interesting book about the Dead Sea scrolls, I always asked myself since then, why weren't they chosen for the bibel?

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:45 am
by jeffcox
Lalee:
If women agree that God is unfair then they cannot believe he is all good. If they believe that he is all good then they must believe that they have to obey men. Therefore, a woman cannot be a believer in God and beleive that they are equal to men!

I am an athiest. No, I don't pray to God even in moments of difficulty. I do believe in the people around me and in my own ability to solve my problems and get through such situations. Don't worry, I've never met a believer in God who belives in atheism!

I do not despise God, I cannot despise what does not exist! I think 'hold the idea of Him in contempt' would be a better choice of words.
Contempt: lack of respect or reverence for something; to dislike; a feeling of resentment or bitterness

But then, I am bombarded with how much people love Him that I feel I am equally entitled to say how much
I dislike the idea of Him.

Anyway, I love your ideas and the fact that we can debate them. I hope that my comments do not offend you, or my choice of expression. If I did, it was not my intention.

It's great to debate these issues, I'm learning a lot from everybody's comments.

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:01 am
by MissLT
Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: When is the end to you?
Well there's no end to me. Although when we die on this earth, it's "the end" like a human being.
That means you don't believe in the Judgment Day? :?

Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:10 am
by Rach
jeffcox wrote:Anyway, I love your ideas and the fact that we can debate them. I hope that my comments do not offend you, or my choice of expression.
Yeah, sometimes it's not so easy to find the right words in issues that really mean a big deal to others, and insulting someone is very far from what you meant. I'm really struggling sometimes to find the right words, and so I'm learning a lot from you guys in this forum. - Sorry, off topic - :lol: