About Bible

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donis
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religions

Postby donis » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:56 pm

for my opinion all religions can be only a way for god..but i know there is not any religion say about another religions bad , all religion have to respect to anothers !! but unfortunately these days i see so many peoples in the world think about like fanatic , and try to speak ill of other religions ..this is so dangerous point for future of world!!

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Danyet
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Postby Danyet » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:12 pm

I have already told you where the proof is that the hebrew Bible has not been changed in at least 2500 - 3000 years by as much as a letter...twice! Yet you still all argue this point.

There is no question by serious minds that the Hebew Bible is unchanged.

The question is about the New Testament. But the only question is "why were some books chosen and others not?".

I have read some of the books not chosen for the NT and it is clear that there were fakes just from their poorly written style.

There are no changes in the New Testament. There are only good accurate translations and poor translations which can easily be verified by anyone by checking the original Greek New Testament. This can be done by anyone who bothers to go to their book store and look at a Greek Lexicon. All the words are numbered and explained line by line.

Your bickering and arguing this point only show me how little you know about the subject at hand!

And you know what they say about opinions!

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Postby jeffcox » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:41 am

Danyet, you are correct in saying that I know little about the subject. I have never mooted this point!

I can only give my opinions and the very little knowledge I have of the bible. If this is not enough to discuss the subject, then I'm afraid that nobody would feel the incentive to research or even change their opinion.

I did use the word 'change' once and I would have prefered the word 'modified' in that I believe exact translations are not possible in all aspects of any language.

As for Greek, try translating the ancient Greek word and the English word that are generally accepted as 'know'. I have a friend who did his Masters based on the understanding of this word in Greek and this word in English. It's enough to make your eyes water! He wasn't refering to the Bible at all, his research was on Greek mythology, but the idea is transferable.

As far as my reading has produced, I have only seen that one holy book confirs and validates the originality of the last one. You may correct me on this if you have more information; I'd be very pleased to hear and study that.

As to 'anyone who bothers to...'; I can only say that my time is pretty full, and as the holy books are not my line of real interest, I have to give what little time I have to my immediate needs. It's not that I can't be bothered; it's that I have other necessities.

I am always open to your opinions, your knowledge and your corrections. I will endeavour to consider and study them all, given my limited time.

Giving opinions is worthless if you are not equally open to receiving and learning! I give my opinions so I'm open and willing to learn from yours.

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Postby Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:41 am

danyet wrote:I have read some of the books not chosen for the NT and it is clear that there were fakes
The question that pops up in my mind by reading your lines: who chose and rated them to be the real word of God? Human beings? Some years ago I read a very interesting book about the Dead Sea scrolls, I always asked myself since then, why weren't they chosen for the bibel?
Last edited by Rach on Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby jeffcox » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:45 am

Lalee:
If women agree that God is unfair then they cannot believe he is all good. If they believe that he is all good then they must believe that they have to obey men. Therefore, a woman cannot be a believer in God and beleive that they are equal to men!

I am an athiest. No, I don't pray to God even in moments of difficulty. I do believe in the people around me and in my own ability to solve my problems and get through such situations. Don't worry, I've never met a believer in God who belives in atheism!

I do not despise God, I cannot despise what does not exist! I think 'hold the idea of Him in contempt' would be a better choice of words.
Contempt: lack of respect or reverence for something; to dislike; a feeling of resentment or bitterness

But then, I am bombarded with how much people love Him that I feel I am equally entitled to say how much
I dislike the idea of Him.

Anyway, I love your ideas and the fact that we can debate them. I hope that my comments do not offend you, or my choice of expression. If I did, it was not my intention.

It's great to debate these issues, I'm learning a lot from everybody's comments.

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:01 am

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:When is the end to you?

Well there's no end to me. Although when we die on this earth, it's "the end" like a human being.

That means you don't believe in the Judgment Day? :?

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Postby Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:10 am

jeffcox wrote:Anyway, I love your ideas and the fact that we can debate them. I hope that my comments do not offend you, or my choice of expression.

Yeah, sometimes it's not so easy to find the right words in issues that really mean a big deal to others, and insulting someone is very far from what you meant. I'm really struggling sometimes to find the right words, and so I'm learning a lot from you guys in this forum. - Sorry, off topic - :lol:

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:13 am

danyet wrote:I have already told you where the proof is that the hebrew Bible has not been changed in at least 2500 - 3000 years by as much as a letter...twice! Yet you still all argue this point.

Where's your proof? *Phhbbbtttssssss* :twisted:

danyet wrote:There is no question by serious minds that the Hebew Bible is unchanged.

We're talking about the translations, dude. And I'm challenging your view on the real Bible in Hebrew, too. Since Lalee said it's hard to understand God because our IQ is limited unlike his, how do you know those men understood his wills? Their knowledge was limited; therefore, how sure are you to say they'd understood everything? How sure are you to say God explained to them those verses word by word?

danyet wrote:The question is about the New Testament. But the only question is "why were some books chosen and others not?".

I guess you already have an answer. What's it?


danyet wrote:There are no changes in the New Testament. There are only good accurate translations and poor translations which can easily be verified by anyone by checking the original Greek New Testament. This can be done by anyone who bothers to go to their book store and look at a Greek Lexicon. All the words are numbered and explained line by line.

The real meaning in every language would lose its orignal meaning when it's translated to another language. You can't deny this fact. It happens to the Bible also. Human's mind is limited, remember?

danyet wrote:Your bickering and arguing this point only show me how little you know about the subject at hand!

And you know what they say about opinions!

Don't you dare turing on your bickering faucet! I must warn you I have sharp teeth and know how to bite. Now my claws are also sharpen.

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:20 am

jeffcox wrote:
I did use the word 'change' once and I would have prefered the word 'modified' in that I believe exact translations are not possible in all aspects of any language.

Exactly! Who knows if the Hebrew Bible is a word of God or not, but the thing is all the other translations are not. It's a work of human.

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:27 am

jeffcox wrote:
I do not despise God, I cannot despise what does not exist!

My aunt once told me that one cannot make a certain statement of something he is uncertain. Life is a mystery; there are so many things that we cannot be able to prove yet because of our limited knowledge. We can't even cure cancer, for crying out loud. Or humans once thought the world was flat until some dude proved it wrong. Who knows in the future that we could prove the existence of God.... by science.

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:29 am

Rach wrote:
danyet wrote:I have read some of the books not chosen for the NT and it is clear that there were fakes
The question that pops up in my mind by reading your lines: who chose and rated them to be the real word of God? Human beings? Some years ago I read a very interesting book about the Dead Sea scrolls, I always asked myself since then, why weren't they chosen for the bibel?

What's it about?

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Postby jeffcox » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:17 am

LennyeTran:

it's all a question of belief.
Provide evidence for or against... it all comes down to belief.

I believe that God does not exist. Therefore, I make my comments based on what I believe, as do those who believe.

As for the Dead Sea Scrolls, I hope Danyet could shed some light on that. He has great knowledge and I enjoy learning from him.

By the way, I love your style... so... masterful and prrrr... meowwww :wink: I bet your claws really are sharp.

Danyet, a question for you: who said, or where is it said, that the Bible is the Word of God? I mean, is it the Bible itself that says this? Was this said in the Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible, too? If there is no concrete proof that God exists, then there is no concrete proof that it is the Word of God, is there?

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:48 am

jeffcox wrote:LennyeTran:

it's all a question of belief.
Provide evidence for or against... it all comes down to belief.

I believe that God does not exist. Therefore, I make my comments based on what I believe, as do those who believe.

:shock: Now, now, now, now, are you contradicting yourself? Some people believe in God without proof because they "know" he's up there; therefore, they don't want proof. Some people don't believe in God because they think he's not existed, like you said he isn't, since they need proof of God's existence to believe, and so do you. You haven't seen or felt him in your heart. Therefore, you don't believe in something when you can't see its existence. How does it all come down to belief when you don't know if God's existed or not? :? :?

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Postby jeffcox » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:18 am

We all have beliefs. I call myself an athiest because I don't believe in God. I do believe in people. I believe people are good and bad, and it has nothing to do with any God or Devil!

Good point, I did contradict myself a little. I chose the wrong word. Well, it was 2:30 in the morning and I should have been sleeping and my brain was already trying to :roll: .

When I said I believe that God does not exist, I meant that I trust my feelings and opinion on this matter, as in the second definition below. Perhaps I should have said: I assert that God does not exist.

▶an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
▶a firmly held opinion or conviction.

:?

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Postby Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:13 pm

LennyeTran wrote:What's it about?

In this book the autor assumed the scrolls being written by Essenic priests, there was a community of Essenes not far away from the cavaties where the scrolls were found. As far as I remember about 800 scrolls and text fragments were found, a few of them are the oldest hebreic bible manuscripts ever found, they are all dated between 300 bc and 100 ad. Some of the textes are very "heretic" (as the church would call them;-), because the content comes from the Gnostizism, a religious movement that was working against the authorities of its time. For example, they believed everybody can achieve resurrection, very heretic for itself;-). Or they teached that everybody is able to contact Him, no priests needed;-), what a dreadful thought for every church. A proverb of the scrolls that I remember: "The house of God is not made of stone". I really love that one;-).

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:22 pm

jeffcox wrote:We all have beliefs. I call myself an athiest because I don't believe in God. I do believe in people. I believe people are good and bad, and it has nothing to do with any God or Devil!

Good point, I did contradict myself a little. I chose the wrong word. Well, it was 2:30 in the morning and I should have been sleeping and my brain was already trying to :roll: .

When I said I believe that God does not exist, I meant that I trust my feelings and opinion on this matter, as in the second definition below. Perhaps I should have said: I assert that God does not exist.

▶an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
▶a firmly held opinion or conviction.

:?

So are you saying you wouldn't believe in God even if science or whatever could prove God's existence?

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Postby Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:25 pm

LennyeTran wrote:Who knows in the future that we could prove the existence of God.... by science.

Yeah, a very interesting thought. I do not believe in God either in the way probably most religious people do, I mean in that "personalized" manner. Then I'm perhaps atheistic, too? I have no idea. But I think we all believe in something, if it's only life for itself, the nature, the humans or whatever, then perhaps atheism doesn't exist at all?
Last edited by Rach on Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:29 pm

jeffcox wrote:If there is no concrete proof that God exists,
:mrgreen: Well, where is the concrete proof that God does not exist? :lol:

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:36 pm

Rach wrote: For example, they believed everybody can achieve resurrection, very heretic for itself;-). Or they teached that everybody is able to contact Him, no priests needed;-), what a dreadful thought for every church. A proverb of the scrolls that I remember: "The house of God is not made of stone". I really love that one;-).

Yeah, they don't believe in reincarnation because it's a very dangerous idea. If one could come back one life after another, what would be the point of the Judgement Day? What would be the point of believing in Jesus as a savior? Etc.

I remember when I was a little kid and started to learn how to read. I would read anything I found in my house. At that time, my family and my cousin's family were living together. My aunt and uncle had a whole bookcase of books about Christianity, ranging from children level to adult level. I loved reading those children books because they had cute pictures, especially the Old Testament book with its cute pictures.

I remember the first part of the Old Testament had pictures of humans getting punished for worshipping cows, objects, building skycrapers up to the sky, etc. As I grew older, I realized it was people of different religions who got punished in that Old Testament. How ironic! Getting punished because of worshipping different religions.

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Postby Danyet » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:36 pm

LennyeTran wrote:
danyet wrote:I have already told you where the proof is that the hebrew Bible has not been changed in at least 2500 - 3000 years by as much as a letter...twice! Yet you still all argue this point.

Where's your proof? *Phhbbbtttssssss* :twisted:


Google The Dead Sea Scrols;;;;;;;I won't say it again.



You are right about translations. That is why there are different brands of Christianity. But They all agree on the basics.
This the reason that you will not find me preaching. Even I am not sure of certain things.

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:41 pm

Rach wrote: But I think we all believe in something, if it's only life for itself, the nature, the humans or whatever, then perhaps atheism doesn't exist at all?

This is exactly why I don't think there's no such thing as atheism. By definition, atheism is

Atheism:

–noun 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

If you believe there is no God, then by definition it's atheism. However, you "believe," so how could it be a "non-belief" at all? You do believe in something. It's just that it's not God. Buddhists don't believe in God, but people do call it a "religion." Therefore, atheism, by all means, is a religion to me, a religion of not believing in God. :twisted:


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