About Bible

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MissLT
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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:29 am

Rach wrote:
danyet wrote:I have read some of the books not chosen for the NT and it is clear that there were fakes
The question that pops up in my mind by reading your lines: who chose and rated them to be the real word of God? Human beings? Some years ago I read a very interesting book about the Dead Sea scrolls, I always asked myself since then, why weren't they chosen for the bibel?

What's it about?

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Postby jeffcox » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:17 am

LennyeTran:

it's all a question of belief.
Provide evidence for or against... it all comes down to belief.

I believe that God does not exist. Therefore, I make my comments based on what I believe, as do those who believe.

As for the Dead Sea Scrolls, I hope Danyet could shed some light on that. He has great knowledge and I enjoy learning from him.

By the way, I love your style... so... masterful and prrrr... meowwww :wink: I bet your claws really are sharp.

Danyet, a question for you: who said, or where is it said, that the Bible is the Word of God? I mean, is it the Bible itself that says this? Was this said in the Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible, too? If there is no concrete proof that God exists, then there is no concrete proof that it is the Word of God, is there?

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:48 am

jeffcox wrote:LennyeTran:

it's all a question of belief.
Provide evidence for or against... it all comes down to belief.

I believe that God does not exist. Therefore, I make my comments based on what I believe, as do those who believe.

:shock: Now, now, now, now, are you contradicting yourself? Some people believe in God without proof because they "know" he's up there; therefore, they don't want proof. Some people don't believe in God because they think he's not existed, like you said he isn't, since they need proof of God's existence to believe, and so do you. You haven't seen or felt him in your heart. Therefore, you don't believe in something when you can't see its existence. How does it all come down to belief when you don't know if God's existed or not? :? :?

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Postby jeffcox » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:18 am

We all have beliefs. I call myself an athiest because I don't believe in God. I do believe in people. I believe people are good and bad, and it has nothing to do with any God or Devil!

Good point, I did contradict myself a little. I chose the wrong word. Well, it was 2:30 in the morning and I should have been sleeping and my brain was already trying to :roll: .

When I said I believe that God does not exist, I meant that I trust my feelings and opinion on this matter, as in the second definition below. Perhaps I should have said: I assert that God does not exist.

▶an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
▶a firmly held opinion or conviction.

:?

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Postby Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:13 pm

LennyeTran wrote:What's it about?

In this book the autor assumed the scrolls being written by Essenic priests, there was a community of Essenes not far away from the cavaties where the scrolls were found. As far as I remember about 800 scrolls and text fragments were found, a few of them are the oldest hebreic bible manuscripts ever found, they are all dated between 300 bc and 100 ad. Some of the textes are very "heretic" (as the church would call them;-), because the content comes from the Gnostizism, a religious movement that was working against the authorities of its time. For example, they believed everybody can achieve resurrection, very heretic for itself;-). Or they teached that everybody is able to contact Him, no priests needed;-), what a dreadful thought for every church. A proverb of the scrolls that I remember: "The house of God is not made of stone". I really love that one;-).

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:22 pm

jeffcox wrote:We all have beliefs. I call myself an athiest because I don't believe in God. I do believe in people. I believe people are good and bad, and it has nothing to do with any God or Devil!

Good point, I did contradict myself a little. I chose the wrong word. Well, it was 2:30 in the morning and I should have been sleeping and my brain was already trying to :roll: .

When I said I believe that God does not exist, I meant that I trust my feelings and opinion on this matter, as in the second definition below. Perhaps I should have said: I assert that God does not exist.

▶an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
▶a firmly held opinion or conviction.

:?

So are you saying you wouldn't believe in God even if science or whatever could prove God's existence?

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Postby Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:25 pm

LennyeTran wrote:Who knows in the future that we could prove the existence of God.... by science.

Yeah, a very interesting thought. I do not believe in God either in the way probably most religious people do, I mean in that "personalized" manner. Then I'm perhaps atheistic, too? I have no idea. But I think we all believe in something, if it's only life for itself, the nature, the humans or whatever, then perhaps atheism doesn't exist at all?
Last edited by Rach on Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Rach » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:29 pm

jeffcox wrote:If there is no concrete proof that God exists,
:mrgreen: Well, where is the concrete proof that God does not exist? :lol:

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:36 pm

Rach wrote: For example, they believed everybody can achieve resurrection, very heretic for itself;-). Or they teached that everybody is able to contact Him, no priests needed;-), what a dreadful thought for every church. A proverb of the scrolls that I remember: "The house of God is not made of stone". I really love that one;-).

Yeah, they don't believe in reincarnation because it's a very dangerous idea. If one could come back one life after another, what would be the point of the Judgement Day? What would be the point of believing in Jesus as a savior? Etc.

I remember when I was a little kid and started to learn how to read. I would read anything I found in my house. At that time, my family and my cousin's family were living together. My aunt and uncle had a whole bookcase of books about Christianity, ranging from children level to adult level. I loved reading those children books because they had cute pictures, especially the Old Testament book with its cute pictures.

I remember the first part of the Old Testament had pictures of humans getting punished for worshipping cows, objects, building skycrapers up to the sky, etc. As I grew older, I realized it was people of different religions who got punished in that Old Testament. How ironic! Getting punished because of worshipping different religions.

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Postby Danyet » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:36 pm

LennyeTran wrote:
danyet wrote:I have already told you where the proof is that the hebrew Bible has not been changed in at least 2500 - 3000 years by as much as a letter...twice! Yet you still all argue this point.

Where's your proof? *Phhbbbtttssssss* :twisted:


Google The Dead Sea Scrols;;;;;;;I won't say it again.



You are right about translations. That is why there are different brands of Christianity. But They all agree on the basics.
This the reason that you will not find me preaching. Even I am not sure of certain things.

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Postby MissLT » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:41 pm

Rach wrote: But I think we all believe in something, if it's only life for itself, the nature, the humans or whatever, then perhaps atheism doesn't exist at all?

This is exactly why I don't think there's no such thing as atheism. By definition, atheism is

Atheism:

–noun 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

If you believe there is no God, then by definition it's atheism. However, you "believe," so how could it be a "non-belief" at all? You do believe in something. It's just that it's not God. Buddhists don't believe in God, but people do call it a "religion." Therefore, atheism, by all means, is a religion to me, a religion of not believing in God. :twisted:

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Postby Danyet » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:41 pm

jeffcox wrote:
I did use the word 'change' once and I would have prefered the word 'modified' in that I believe exact translations are not possible in all aspects of any language.


Part of the reason for my post on "change' is for the benefit of those in the Muslims Middle East forum who believe that the Bible was changed by the Jews. This is clearly NOT THE CASE.

This is an extremely important for Muslims because if the Bible was not change then it proves Mohammed was a fake!

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Postby Rach » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:17 am

LennyeTran wrote:Yeah, they don't believe in reincarnation because it's a very dangerous idea. If one could come back one life after another, what would be the point of the Judgement Day? What would be the point of believing in Jesus as a savior? Etc.

Exactly :wink:. The catholic church in the first centuries actually believed in reincarnation, a fact that really surprised me. They changed it in some strange council, don't remember when this happened exactly. The Essenes believed in reincarnation, too, and because some historians assume a link between Jesus and the Essenes, I really believe that what is written in the bible or part of the teaching of today's christian churches, is not quite the same that Jesus actually teached.

How ironic! Getting punished because of worshipping different religions.

Yeah, it's very sad. So much people got killed (or still get killed) in the name of God/Allah or however they call him. In the name of god... how ironic.

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Postby MissLT » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:23 am

Rach wrote:Exactly :wink:. The catholic church in the first centuries actually believed in reincarnation, a fact that really surprised me. They changed it in some strange council, don't remember when this happened exactly.

I remember asking my teacher why. He said it was because of money. And he laughed. So I'm not quite sure if he was joking about it or it was real true. :?

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Postby jeffcox » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:34 am

I think that there is no God. That is my statement.
Call it belief, call it opinion... call it what you will. I'm not going to fight over the exact wording as I'm a self-confessed lethargic non-believer.

As far as I am concerned, there is no God. I think that qualifies me as a trainee athieist! :?

LennyeTran: If God existed, I really wouldn't like him anyway. I've seen too much pain and suffering to believe that it's all for our 'spiritual good'. And even then, I've lived a pretty comfortable life.

When people can't explain what happens in life through the Bible, they say 'the ways of God are beyond those who are below Him' or some such idea.

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Postby Rach » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:42 am

LennyeTran wrote:I remember asking my teacher why. He said it was because of money. And he laughed. So I'm not quite sure if he was joking about it or it was real true. :?

Wasn't it everything about money in the church? :lol: I think you have pointed out the reasons very good, if there was such a thing like reincarnation, why should anybody need Jesus as a saviour? I looked what Wikipedia sais to all that and I found that council, it was the second council of Constantinople:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_and_reincarnation

Origen, an early Christian theologian who lived during the third century, wrote that "The soul has neither beginning nor end. [They] come into this world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defeats of their previous existence" (De Principiis). This belief was not unique to Origen; early Christians believed that the soul exists prior to the conception and birth of a person, a belief that many then-popular variants of Greek philosophy accepted....

In AD 553, more than three hundred years after Origen's death, the Emperor Justinian issued an edict against Origen, whose writings had by then become very divisive, and convened the Second Council of Constantinople. This Council issued "The Anathemas Against Origen". The first sentence reads, "If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema."....

The decision of the Second Council of Constantinople regarding the pre-existence of souls has never been disputed since by traditional Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant theologians and mainstream denominations.

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Postby Danyet » Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:49 am

What the Catholic councils agreed to or disagreed on is of little importance to Christianity because they are not an authority on Christianity. They are simply a political organization as corupt as anything else.

CHristianity is between one person and his Creator. That's all!

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Postby Lalee » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:08 pm

jeffcox wrote:Anyway, I love your ideas and the fact that we can debate them. I hope that my comments do not offend you, or my choice of expression. If I did, it was not my intention.
It's great to debate these issues, I'm learning a lot from everybody's comments.

Jeff, your comments never offended me so don't worry. Actually it's interesting to know how some people think about God.

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Postby Lalee » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:11 pm

LennyeTran wrote:That means you don't believe in the Judgment Day? :?

Of course I do. That's written in the Bible. The Judgment Day is not the end. You know that our souls are eternal, right? So if our body dies, our souls have to go somewhere and live in that place forever. So what's the end? I'd say there's no end.

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Postby Danyet » Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:06 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:That means you don't believe in the Judgment Day? :?

Of course I do. That's written in the Bible. The Judgment Day is not the end. You know that our souls are eternal, right? So if our body dies, our souls have to go somewhere and live in that place forever. So what's the end? I'd say there's no end.

Nowhere in the Bible is it written that the soul is immortal. It is written that "The soul that sinneth dies"!!!


Your idea that the soul lives forever is from Greek pagans and adopted by the Roman Catholics in the 3rd century.

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Postby Lalee » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:19 pm

danyet wrote:Nowhere in the Bible is it written that the soul is immortal. It is written that "The soul that sinneth dies"!!!
Your idea that the soul lives forever is from Greek pagans and adopted by the Roman Catholics in the 3rd century.

Well I was referring to the spirit. To me soul and spirit mean pretty much the same thing but according the Bible, it seems they're different since it mentions both, soul and spirit. For example:
Genesis 2,7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Also they say "The holy Spirit" and not "the holy soul."
The spirit originates from the breath of God when He created Adam and that's why it's eternal.
If the spirit were not be eternal, they wouldn't be anything for us after we die here.


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