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Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:35 am**

My country, the Philippines, is the only Catholic nation in Asia and the third largest Catholic nation in the world after Brazil and Mexico. There are some 70 million Catholics in the Philippines, and I’m blessed to be one of them.

It must be noted that in Sacrament of Reconciliation or popularly known as confession, it’s not the priest who forgives sins and DEFINITELY no collection is made for it. “What you held bound on earth shall be bound in heaven,” Jesus has spoken in the bible. This is the foundation of Catholic’s Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Catholicism and Christianity are inseparable. But it doesn’t always follow that when you are a Christian, you are Catholic. There are so many denominations in Christianity but all believing in Christ as God and Savior; thus, called Christian, followers of Christ.

It must be noted that icons and statues are not worshipped. They serve as a reminder, just like when you have a picture of your loved ones in your wallet. You are reminded that they are present; they exist and could serve as your inspiration.

We don’t worship Blessed Virgin Mary. We honor Mary for her “yes” to being the Mother of Jesus. We ask for her to intercede to our prayers.

Now, there’s a difference between veneration and worshipping. It must be noted.

The gist of all of these things is respect to what others believe. If you’re Islam, Buddhist, Protestant, go on with your faith. It’s not insulting or mocking what one believes to be his way to salvation. After all, religion is just but a guide to achieving the final destination, and that is to be in communion with his Creator.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:02 pm**

Firstly, there is nothing written in the Bible that tells us to venerate anyone includung Mary, As a matter of a fact Mary is barely mentioned at all.

Secondly, there is nothing at all in the Bible mentioned about Mary acting as an intercessor for prayers. That is just plain looney! Where are you Bible quotes for that? Hmmm?

Thirdly, Whether or not you believe that priests can forgive sin doesn't change the fact that for centuries priests charged the people a fee for "Cofession".

If you did just a little research on your religion you would have found that catholicism is steeped in pagan roots and then perhaps begun your search for real truth.
If you knew just a fraction of lies spread and the atrocity caused by the Roman Catholic church you would find a better church unconnected with such despicable behaviour. It amazes me that this church has any members left at all, given the availability of the facts and knowlegde in general these days.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:09 pm**

shigore wrote:I want to ask you one question?
did you read the holy koran?

I have read enough to know that the Koran is a boring fairytale for the simple minded and it's accompanying Hadith is for morons!

Posted: **Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:00 am**

danyet wrote:
shigore wrote:I want to ask you one question?
did you read the holy koran?
I have read enough to know that the Koran is a boring fairytale for the simple minded and it's accompanying Hadith is for morons!

dear danyet,

you read holly koran on the website, and there a lot of them make own website and writting anything ...

better for you getting holly quran from ksa

bye
pearl

Posted: **Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:39 am**

[quote="danyet"]Firstly, there is nothing written in the Bible that tells us to venerate anyone includung Mary, As a matter of a fact Mary is barely mentioned at all.

Secondly, there is nothing at all in the Bible mentioned about Mary acting as an intercessor for prayers. That is just plain looney! Where are you Bible quotes for that? Hmmm?

Thirdly, Whether or not you believe that priests can forgive sin doesn't change the fact that for centuries priests charged the people a fee for "Cofession".

If you did just a little research on your religion you would have found that catholicism is steeped in pagan roots and then perhaps begun your search for real truth.
If you knew just a fraction of lies spread and the atrocity caused by the Roman Catholic church you would find a better church unconnected with such despicable behaviour. It amazes me that this church has any members left at all, given the availability of the facts and knowlegde in general these days.[/quote]

I guess, I need not argue. If that's your opinion, let it be. You, coming from US, I'm not surprised. Religion is fading fast in that part of the world. It's a crime to hurt a dog, but it's legal to abort babies. I say sorry to some Americans, but that's the reality.

Go to the Philippines and experience how Catholicism is so much alive.

I need not do research to know the origin of my religion. I've learned so much in the seminary, pal. And nobody can shatter my faith, not even you.

Watch out, little knowledge is dangerous.

About Blessed Virgin Mary? I'm just very blessed to have that love for her.

Luke 1.46–55

Canticle of Mary

My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour,
for he has looked with favour on the lowliness of his servant.
Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
for the Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
His mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with his arm;
he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts.
He has brought down the powerful from their thrones,
and lifted up the lowly;
he has filled the hungry with good things,
and sent the rich away empty.
He has helped his servant Israel,
in remembrance of his mercy,
according to the promise he made to our ancestors,
to Abraham and to his descendants for ever.

Posted: **Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:51 am**

Your canticle of mary has nothing to do with Mary!

USA is probably more religious than Philipines, as most catholics do not even know what the Bible says because they have not studied it, you included. As a matter of fact you sound just as looney and brainwashed as the Muslims here on this forum. There is little difference between them and you. They refuse to do research too.

Do not think that you have Biblical knowledge just because you study in a seminary, particularly a catholic one.

Posted: **Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:51 am**

jakeson wrote:
I guess, I need not argue. If that's your opinion, let it be. You, coming from US, I'm not surprised. Religion is fading fast in that part of the world. It's a crime to hurt a dog, but it's legal to abort babies. I say sorry to some Americans, but that's the reality.

Religions are fading fast in most part of the world. This is why atheist population is growing (I'm not gonna argue about atheism since in my opinion there is no such thing).

Anyway, back to the topic, it's still really not legal for abortion. Bush Administration has been trying to ban it with little success, though. A woman has a right to do what's right for her body and condition. No government should interfere. Your example about dogs and fetuses are like apples and oranges, to me. I don't see the relation.

Posted: **Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:21 am**

[quote="danyet"]Your canticle of mary has nothing to do with Mary!

USA is probably more religious than Philipines, as most catholics do not even know what the Bible says because they have not studied it, you included. As a matter of fact you sound just as looney and brainwashed as the Muslims here on this forum. There is little difference between them and you. They refuse to do research too.

Do not think that you have Biblical knowledge just because you study in a seminary, particularly a catholic one.[/quote]

All right. All right. This is not a battle of who is smarter or who is dumber. Whatever you said, let it be.

I know myself, I know what I know, and I know how deep my faith is and I need not prove you that.

And, oh, don't be misguided by just merely hearsay.

Posted: **Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:22 am**

jakeson wrote: I know how deep my faith is and I need not prove you that.

Muslims know how deep their faith is too. So what does that really mean, nothing. You both can't be right, so having faith without knowledge is meaningless ....this is what the problem is in the world today.
Oh, and by the way, the Bible rather silent about abortion and ambiguous about when life begins so the catholic doctrine in abortion is just that....catholic doctrine. You have no right to judge people in America as being not very christian very over this issue.

Posted: **Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:13 am**

[quote="danyet"][quote="jakeson"] I know how deep my faith is and I need not prove you that.

[/quote]Muslims know how deep their faith is too. So what does that really mean, nothing. You both can't be right, so having faith without knowledge is meaningless ....this is what the problem is in the world today.
Oh, and by the way, the Bible rather silent about abortion and ambiguous about when life begins so the catholic doctrine in abortion is just that....catholic doctrine. You have no right to judge people in America as being not very christian very over this issue.[/quote]

Okay. Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.

And by the way, don't be too over reacting on what others believe in. You have also no right to judge other's faith. The best and the greatest thing you can do is to respect them.

Posted: **Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:49 am**

all i know about bible is just:
it will tell you the truth and the way of eternal life in the name of Jesus christ...

Posted: **Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:39 am**

andes wrote:all i know about bible is just:
it will tell you the truth and the way of eternal life in the name of Jesus christ...

Good for you.

Posted: **Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:53 am**

Andes wrote:

all i know about bible is just:
it will tell you the truth and the way of eternal life in the name of Jesus christ...

Oh boy, you really need a bible to do that? The bible was written by a bunch of blokes. It's not a book, it's a collection of writings. These writings were chosen because someone happened to like those ones. The others were ignored because he didn't like those.

Consider the bible, you'd have to consider all of those writings. Exacly which bible are you reading that shows you the truth that that guy decided was the truth?

Interesting, uh?

Posted: **Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:57 am**

should be good for all..

Posted: **Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:11 pm**

andes wrote:should be good for all..

I don't believe in it, but you do. Thus, good for you.

Posted: **Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:39 pm**

LennyeTran Wrote: I don't believe in it, but you do. Thus, good for you.

Is it enough just to believe in something? Many people commit atrocious acts because they believe in the reason.

Shouldn't we always question what we believe? Shouldn't we always challenge our own concepts and prejudice?

Recently, some research showed that what we 'believe' can affect our rationality and logical thought processes. When our brain is involved in belief or preference, the parts that control belief or preference become active, but so do the parts that control our emotions. So, our concepts, decisions and preferences are often blurred by our emotions. Remember Spock, the Vulcan, from Startreck; he was always complaining about this. Finally it has been proven by the use of cat scans.

So, read the Bible, by all means. But don't take it all on blind faith. Try to analyse it and criticize it as much as you can. Try to destroy its arguments. When you've tried really hard to do that and you still beleive in it, at least your belief is well founded on logical argument and not floating in the air.

Of course, it will still be 'faith' or 'belief', because there is no real proof presented to show that God exists. You will still be relying on 'belief' but you've tried to get as near to the truth as you can and be less prejudicial as you can. At least you're trying to leave the cave. (A reference to Plato, not an insult).

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:53 am**

Uh huh.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:29 am**

I've read the Bible twice and I think it's a great book. It's full of wisdom.
Christians should always read the bible. If people would read it, they wouldn't believe in lies like Virgin Mary or they wouldn't hang pictures of so- called "saints" on their walls, lit candles and pray to them. That's just silly and nonsense. They can't do anything to help them.
Anyway, it would be good if you knew more about it.
Although it seems like a huge and boring book, it is not.
Through it God wants to show us the right path to salvation. Actually it's very easy to receive it. God doesn't ask too much from us.
Too bad people nowadays think that they need to be good and do good deeds to get eternal life.
Anyhow, read the bible. It's cool. :)

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:22 pm**

Lalee wrote: If people would read it, they wouldn't believe in lies like Virgin Mary or they wouldn't hang pictures of so- called "saints" on their walls, lit candles and pray to them. That's just silly and nonsense.

wowowow!! can this be reffered to orthodox christianity?? I am not religious but can't keep silent when... I can

Is it so important - all our believes and religions? does it really matter? you are a young and nice girl why to put you mind full of that religions and so on? :?

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:49 pm**

Tora wrote: wowowow!! can this be reffered to orthodox christianity?? I am not religious but can't keep silent when... I can Is it so important - all our believes and religions? does it really matter? you are a young and nice girl why to put you mind full of that religions and so on? :?

It doesn't matter if I'm young or old. It just bugs me when people follow others without knowing if what they're following is right or not.
For instance, catholics here like to pray to idols which are statues of dead people called saints. Why don't they pray to God instead of those idols? Isn't God powerful enough to help them? They think they're true believers but there they are worshipping false gods.
Now if they read the bible, they would know that their church follows lots of beliefs the Bible is against.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:21 pm**

Lalee wrote:
Tora wrote: wowowow!! can this be reffered to orthodox christianity?? I am not religious but can't keep silent when... I can Is it so important - all our believes and religions? does it really matter? you are a young and nice girl why to put you mind full of that religions and so on? :?
It doesn't matter if I'm young or old. It just bugs me when people follow others without knowing if what they're following is right or not.
For instance, catholics here like to pray to idols which are statues of dead people called saints. Why don't they pray to God instead of those idols? Isn't God powerful enough to help them? They think they're true believers but there they are worshipping false gods.
Now if they read the bible, they would know that their church follows lots of beliefs the Bible is against.

Wow!!! How odd!! I'm Catholic and we're( my family and Venezuelan) are not like that!!! My parents used to be like those in ur country but they realized that it wasn't good.We're still Catholic, but we don't believe in those Idols :? I know some do that and I don't understand, I mean, I don't get why Catholicism adopted that belief! :(

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:35 pm**

Lalee wrote: For instance, catholics here like to pray to idols which are statues of dead people called saints. Why don't they pray to God instead of those idols? Isn't God powerful enough to help them? They think they're true believers but there they are worshipping false gods.
Now if they read the bible, they would know that their church follows lots of beliefs the Bible is against.

Same thing for Buddhists who worship Buddha statues and do all kinda praying. I don't think it's nonsense, though. It's just a way to show your respect. Whatever fits you!

Last time, we had a huge argument in our world religions class about Muslims who chanted to hang the guys who did the caricatures. My teacher said one of the differences between a Buddhist, a Christian, and a Muslim is the way they show their worship. Even within each religion, there are people who worship in different ways.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:39 pm**

Oriani wrote: Wow!!! How odd!! I'm Catholic and we're( my family and Venezuelan) are not like that!!! My parents used to be like those in ur country but they realized that it wasn't good.We're still Catholic, but we don't believe in those Idols :? I know some do that and I don't understand, I mean, I don't get why Catholicism adopted that belief! :(

I don't understand either, Oriani.
The only thing I know is that they have strange beliefs.
So I guess you go to church every Sunday, right? What's the first thing you see when you enter? Here most churches are scary, full of a bunch of statues.

The weirdest thing about Catholicism is that they worship Mary more than God. Why would I want to worship a woman who was just like me? The only difference between me and her is that she got chosen. She didn't remain virgin all her life so she was just a regular woman who got God's blessing and that's it.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:47 pm**

I always thought that religion is a descreet agreement between you and god you worship - not the best "description" but still... why do you care about other people? follow your way and reach Heaven or whateverelse, but you can't make the world catholics and christian change! I have never read bible from cover to cover - I don't feel embarassed or something - I don't need it at this very moment - and it is my own business... like it is their own business to pray to god mary-not-vergin or idols
everyone has his own way to god

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:48 pm**

LennyeTran wrote: Same thing for Buddhists who worship Buddha statues and do all kinda praying. I don't think it's nonsense, though. It's just a way to show your respect. Whatever fits you!

I don't really know much about Buddhism so I can't say much about it. I guess they have a book they follow as well that's similar to the Bible?

LennyeTran wrote: Last time, we had a huge argument in our world religions class about Muslims who chanted to hang the guys who did the caricatures. My teacher said one of the differences between a Buddhist, a Christian, and a Muslim is the way they show their worship. Even within each religion, there are people who worship in different ways.

Your teacher might be right but it really depends on the type of religion they're into.
Catholics and Christians both believe in the Bible, right? Now if in the Bible says that God does not like it when people worship other false gods, idols or whatever we want to call them...Why do they still do it? Isn't that stupid?

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:02 pm**

Tora wrote:I always thought that religion is a descreet agreement between you and god you worship - not the best "description" but still... why do you care about other people? follow your way and reach Heaven or whateverelse, but you can't make the world catholics and christian change! I have never read bible from cover to cover - I don't feel embarassed or something - I don't need it at this very moment - and it is my own business... like it is their own business to pray to god mary-not-vergin or idols
everyone has his own way to god

Let me ask you something, would people know all the things they know already about God if they hadn't read the Bible?
I don't think they would.
Now, Christians have a mission. They're supposed to share the Gospel to others and show them the right path. If someone is wrong about something, aren't you supposed to tell them that? They don't try to change anything. The only thing they do is letting people know that the way they believe in God is not according to what the Bible says. Now if they say they have their own way to believe in things, now that would be called stubbornness.
If they call themselves Christians, they wouldn't think that way because their beliefs are based on the Bible.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:13 pm**

Lalee wrote:
Oriani wrote: Wow!!! How odd!! I'm Catholic and we're( my family and Venezuelan) are not like that!!! My parents used to be like those in ur country but they realized that it wasn't good.We're still Catholic, but we don't believe in those Idols :? I know some do that and I don't understand, I mean, I don't get why Catholicism adopted that belief! :(
I don't understand either, Oriani.
The only thing I know is that they have strange beliefs.
So I guess you go to church every Sunday, right? What's the first thing you see when you enter? Here most churches are scary, full of a bunch of statues.

The weirdest thing about Catholicism is that they worship Mary more than God. Why would I want to worship a woman who was just like me? The only difference between me and her is that she got chosen. She didn't remain virgin all her life so she was just a regular woman who got God's blessing and that's it.

Yes, I go to Chruch every Sunday, but fortunately me and my family don't believe such Idols! We recognize that Mary was Jesus's mom and about the Angel who told her about the baby. That's O.K; but those Saints and so on??? I don't like it.I mean, ok, they were good people when they were alive, but I don't understand why they have to be Saints and we have to pray them. Some people say that I'm not a good Catholic because of that, but why not?? I do Believe in Jesus Christ and God, I think is the most important thing. But I do love being Catholic and I respect it!!! :P

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:20 pm**

Lalee wrote: Let me ask you something, would people know all the things they know already about God if they hadn't read the Bible?
I don't think they would.

I agree here

Lalee wrote:Now, Christians have a mission. They're supposed to share the Gospel to others and show them the right path.

Muslims say they are doing particularly the same

Lalee wrote:If someone is wrong about something, aren't you supposed to tell them that? They don't try to change anything. The only thing they do is letting people know that the way they believe in God is not according to what the Bible says. Now if they say they have their own way to believe in things, now that would be called stubbornness.
If they call themselves Christians, they wouldn't think that way because their beliefs are based on the Bible.

I guess that every religion is based on some morality - this is the basis of people behavior. here is a quote from a book (after Somerset Maugham) I found not so long time ago - it coincides with my opinion completely

Code: Select all

... You have thrown aside a creed, but you have preserved the ethic which was based upon it. To all intents you are a Christian still, and if there is a God in Heaven you will undoubtedly receive your reward. The Almighty can hardly be such a fool as the churches make out. If you keep His laws I don't think He can care a packet of pins whether you believe in Him or not...

(Of Human Bondage, chapter 45)

this is just for me when I think about praying, visiting church and all that kind of stuff true christians are supposed to do (or not supposed to according to the bible) - if you follow god's law you are true christian and not matter how you pray and how you cross yourself

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:39 pm**

Perfect. Tora! :P

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:42 pm**

Oriani wrote:Perfect. Tora! :P

not at all

(my turn to turn red :P )

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:46 pm**

Tora wrote:
Oriani wrote:Perfect. Tora! :P
not at all (my turn to turn red :P )

Hahaha did u see? It's easy to get blushed :P

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:59 pm**

Oriani wrote: Yes, I go to Chruch every Sunday, but fortunately me and my family don't believe such Idols! We recognize that Mary was Jesus's mom and about the Angel who told her about the baby. That's O.K; but those Saints and so on??? I don't like it.I mean, ok, they were good people when they were alive, but I don't understand why they have to be Saints and we have to pray them. Some people say that I'm not a good Catholic because of that, but why not?? I do Believe in Jesus Christ and God, I think is the most important thing. But I do love being Catholic and I respect it!!! :P

So you love being catholic even when there are some things you disagree on? Isn't that odd?
I think you like it because all your family is into it too.
Why would someone love being part of a group when he or she didn't even understand it???

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:07 pm**

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: Same thing for Buddhists who worship Buddha statues and do all kinda praying. I don't think it's nonsense, though. It's just a way to show your respect. Whatever fits you!
I don't really know much about Buddhism so I can't say much about it. I guess they have a book they follow as well that's similar to the Bible?

Bunch of books, not just one like the Bible.

Lalee wrote:Your teacher might be right but it really depends on the type of religion they're into.
Catholics and Christians both believe in the Bible, right? Now if in the Bible says that God does not like it when people worship other false gods, idols or whatever we want to call them...Why do they still do it? Isn't that stupid?

But the Bible was written by men!!! For example, we know God doesn't like killing, but Christians believe in the Judgement Day. And the Bible says believe in Jesus Christ, for you'll be saved. However, what if a person who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ but a nice person and a person who believes in him but is a murder, who would be saved?

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:11 pm**

Lalee wrote:
The weirdest thing about Catholicism is that they worship Mary more than God. Why would I want to worship a woman who was just like me? The only difference between me and her is that she got chosen. She didn't remain virgin all her life so she was just a regular woman who got God's blessing and that's it.

I don't know. I asked Chris and he said it's more about respect than worshipping. Same like you respect Mother Teresa.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:14 pm**

LennyeTran wrote: But the Bible was written by men!!!

Not exactly. God had to use men to write it. I don't think He has hands to do it Himself. :)
Listen to this:
2 Peter 1, 20-21
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

LennyeTran wrote: For example, we know God doesn't like killing, but Christians believe in the Judgement Day. And the Bible says believe in Jesus Christ, for you'll be saved. However, what if a person who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ but a nice person and a person who believes in him but is a murder, who would be saved?

Although what I'm about to say might sound unfair, it's the truth. The murderer would be saved.

God only accepts the ones who believe in His son, Jesus. To him we are the same. All human beings have good and bad sides so there's really not much difference to God.
To Him, there's only one way for people to go to heaven and that's Jesus.
And through the Bible He gives us many examples.

In Exodus 12 there's this story about the Passover.
12For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
13And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt
He asked the israelites to slaughter an animal without defect and with some of its blood they had to put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of their houses.
I bet there were nice and bad people before our eyes in those houses but, did God care about that? He only cared about the blood painted. If they saw the blood, that house got saved and if HE didn't, they were destroyed. As simple as that.
The only people who got saved were the ones who followed and believed in what God told them to do.

Even Egyptians could've gotten saved if they had believed in that.

The same goes with the story in Luke 23 about two criminals who were sentenced to death like Jesus was. Both of them were criminals and deserved to die on the cross but only one got saved. Did he do a good deed? Was he a good person? Only one of them recognized Jesus as the saviour by asking Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom and we can see he got saved when Jesus told him that this criminal was going to be with Him in paradise.
Also there are more stories like these ones where God shows us that trying to be a good person will not lead us to heaven.

So we can conclude that going to heaven does not depend on our good deeds or how nice people we are.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:46 pm**

LennyeTran wrote: I don't know. I asked Chris and he said it's more about respect than worshipping. Same like you respect Mother Teresa.

Well to me, what they do with Mary is called worship. They even dare call her "Mother of God" Like, what the heck is that?

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:56 pm**

Tora wrote: this is just for me when I think about praying, visiting church and all that kind of stuff true christians are supposed to do (or not supposed to according to the bible) - if you follow god's law you are true christian and not matter how you pray and how you cross yourself

I know what you mean but God doesn't care much what your point of view is. It sounds kind of selfish but how can we know the way we think it's right or not? How can we be 100% of that? I think He knows better than us.
Isaiah 55
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:38 pm**

The professor is always right.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:46 pm**

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: But the Bible was written by men!!!
Not exactly. God had to use men to write it. I don't think He has hands to do it Himself. :)

Permission to laugh, please?

One question, how does God look like to you?

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:52 pm**

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: I don't know. I asked Chris and he said it's more about respect than worshipping. Same like you respect Mother Teresa.
Well to me, what they do with Mary is called worship. They even dare call her "Mother of God" Like, what the heck is that?

It seems like that to me, but respect can be seen as worshipping when it comes to religions. In Vietnamese, Virgin Mary is Me Maria or Me Dong Trinh (Virgin). They called her Me (Mother) Thien Chua (Jesus Christ) (Mother of Jesus Christ if you translated it). I don't know about English version. I have to ask Chris.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:41 pm**

Lalee wrote: Although what I'm about to say might sound unfair, it's the truth. The murderer would be saved.

God only accepts the ones who believe in His son, Jesus. To him we are the same. All human beings have good and bad sides so there's really not much difference to God.
To Him, there's only one way for people to go to heaven and that's Jesus.

Yours and my cousin's and Chris's explanation are different. According to my cousin and Chris, the one who killed and believed in Jesus Christ won't be forgiven of sins; therefore, denied Heaven. The nice person who didn't believe in Jesus Christ would go to hell and would be saved to Heaven when he acknowledged Jesus Christ. They both ended up in hell for their own sins.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:51 pm**

Lalee wrote:
The same goes with the story in Luke 23 about two criminals who were sentenced to death like Jesus was. Both of them were criminals and deserved to die on the cross but only one got saved. Did he do a good deed? Was he a good person? Only one of them recognized Jesus as the saviour by asking Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom and we can see he got saved when Jesus told him that this criminal was going to be with Him in paradise.
Also there are more stories like these ones where God shows us that trying to be a good person will not lead us to heaven.

So we can conclude that going to heaven does not depend on our good deeds or how nice people we are.

You said both of them were criminals though. Not one of them was nice and one was not and the unkind person got saved because he acknowledged Jesus as a savior.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:29 pm**

LennyeTran wrote: Yours and my cousin's and Chris's explanation are different. According to my cousin and Chris, the one who killed and believed in Jesus Christ won't be forgiven of sins; therefore, denied Heaven.

I thought Jesus came to save us from sin and hell.
So now if the murderer believed and still goes to hell..what's the point in believing in Jesus'death??
Ask them this question, if Jesus came to this earth to save us from sin, what role do we play in that sacrifice? I mean, if God says we're saved through Christ, what else is left to do?

LennyeTran wrote: The nice person who didn't believe in Jesus Christ would go to hell and would be saved to Heaven when he acknowledged Jesus Christ. They both ended up in hell for their own sins.

he would go to hell and would be saved to heaven? How can someone go to hell and then go to heaven?
Yes, both of them sinned but there's one difference between them. One believed and they other didn't. Salvation is about believing and faith rather than doing something.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:31 pm**

LennyeTran wrote: You said both of them were criminals though. Not one of them was nice and one was not and the unkind person got saved because he acknowledged Jesus as a savior.

Uh huh so... what's your point?

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:35 pm**

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: Yours and my cousin's and Chris's explanation are different. According to my cousin and Chris, the one who killed and believed in Jesus Christ won't be forgiven of sins; therefore, denied Heaven.
I thought Jesus came to save us from sin and hell.
So now if the murderer believed and still goes to hell..what's the point in believing in Jesus'death??

If you believe in Jesus Christ; hence, you would believe in his teaching. This is what they mean. And if you believe in his teaching, why would you go against it to kill others? They say you can't fake your way out to heaven by just saying you've acknowledged when you won't follow his teaching afterwards.

Lalee wrote:Ask them this question, if Jesus came to this earth to save us from sin, what role do we play in that sacrifice? I mean, if God says we're saved through Christ, what else is left to do?

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. :?

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: The nice person who didn't believe in Jesus Christ would go to hell and would be saved to Heaven when he acknowledged Jesus Christ. They both ended up in hell for their own sins.

he would go to hell and would be saved to heaven? How can someone go to hell and then go to heaven?
Yes, both of them sinned but there's one difference between them. One believed and they other didn't. Salvation is about believing and faith rather than doing something.

When he went to hell, then he would realize there was hell and heaven and there was the presence of Jesus Christ and his mind would be enlighted. Thus, when he acknowledged Jesus Christ and his teaching, he'll go to heaven.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:35 pm**

The only way to God is to praise him.

So, he's egoistic, self-centred and really loves himself.

The Bible is full of evidence to uphold this statement.

If you don't do what God says, and you don't follow his rules, and if you don't recognize him... You're really up the creek without a paddle!

So, do Christians do good things because they will get into heaven (be rewarded), which would be a very egoistic thing to do?

Why be good at all? I mean, you can be as evil and terrible as you want to be throughout your life, then at the moment you meet God, you just beg his forgiveness and BINGO, freeway to heaven.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:36 pm**

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: You said both of them were criminals though. Not one of them was nice and one was not and the unkind person got saved because he acknowledged Jesus as a savior.
Uh huh so... what's your point?

It doesn't look like my example. DUH, slow-ee.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:39 pm**

jeffcox wrote: Why be good at all? I mean, you can be as evil and terrible as you want to be throughout your life, then at the moment you meet God, you just beg his forgiveness and BINGO, freeway to heaven.

Exactly! That's what I said to my cousin, and she said it's a wrong interpretation. Believing in Christ is a semi-guarantee ticket for you to be in heaven; however, you have to follow his teaching. Oherwise, you're just a common sinner.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:39 pm**

LennyeTran wrote: Permission to laugh, please? One question, how does God look like to you?

I knew you were going to laugh.
What does God look like to me?
Well he definitely doesn't look like a human being. There's a part in the Bible that describes Him a little bit.
Revelation 4
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

Posted: **Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:43 pm**

LennyeTran wrote: It doesn't look like my example. DUH, slow-ee.

You're contagious.
I'll look for a better example then.

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