About Bible

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andes
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Post by andes » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:49 am

all i know about bible is just:
it will tell you the truth and the way of eternal life in the name of Jesus christ...

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Post by MissLT » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:39 am

andes wrote:all i know about bible is just:
it will tell you the truth and the way of eternal life in the name of Jesus christ...
Good for you.

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Post by jeffcox » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:53 am

Andes wrote:
all i know about bible is just:
it will tell you the truth and the way of eternal life in the name of Jesus christ...
Oh boy, you really need a bible to do that? The bible was written by a bunch of blokes. It's not a book, it's a collection of writings. These writings were chosen because someone happened to like those ones. The others were ignored because he didn't like those.

Consider the bible, you'd have to consider all of those writings. Exacly which bible are you reading that shows you the truth that that guy decided was the truth?

Interesting, uh?

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andes
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Post by andes » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:57 am

should be good for all..

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Post by MissLT » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:11 pm

andes wrote:should be good for all..
I don't believe in it, but you do. Thus, good for you.

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Post by jeffcox » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:39 pm

LennyeTran Wrote: I don't believe in it, but you do. Thus, good for you.
Is it enough just to believe in something? Many people commit atrocious acts because they believe in the reason.

Shouldn't we always question what we believe? Shouldn't we always challenge our own concepts and prejudice?

Recently, some research showed that what we 'believe' can affect our rationality and logical thought processes. When our brain is involved in belief or preference, the parts that control belief or preference become active, but so do the parts that control our emotions. So, our concepts, decisions and preferences are often blurred by our emotions. Remember Spock, the Vulcan, from Startreck; he was always complaining about this. Finally it has been proven by the use of cat scans.

So, read the Bible, by all means. But don't take it all on blind faith. Try to analyse it and criticize it as much as you can. Try to destroy its arguments. When you've tried really hard to do that and you still beleive in it, at least your belief is well founded on logical argument and not floating in the air.

Of course, it will still be 'faith' or 'belief', because there is no real proof presented to show that God exists. You will still be relying on 'belief' but you've tried to get as near to the truth as you can and be less prejudicial as you can. At least you're trying to leave the cave. (A reference to Plato, not an insult).

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MissLT
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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:53 am

Uh huh.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:29 am

I've read the Bible twice and I think it's a great book. It's full of wisdom.
Christians should always read the bible. If people would read it, they wouldn't believe in lies like Virgin Mary or they wouldn't hang pictures of so- called "saints" on their walls, lit candles and pray to them. That's just silly and nonsense. They can't do anything to help them.
Anyway, it would be good if you knew more about it.
Although it seems like a huge and boring book, it is not.
Through it God wants to show us the right path to salvation. Actually it's very easy to receive it. God doesn't ask too much from us.
Too bad people nowadays think that they need to be good and do good deeds to get eternal life.
Anyhow, read the bible. It's cool. :)

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Post by Tora » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:22 pm

Lalee wrote: If people would read it, they wouldn't believe in lies like Virgin Mary or they wouldn't hang pictures of so- called "saints" on their walls, lit candles and pray to them. That's just silly and nonsense.
wowowow!! can this be reffered to orthodox christianity?? I am not religious but can't keep silent when... I can :lol: Is it so important - all our believes and religions? does it really matter? you are a young and nice girl why to put you mind full of that religions and so on? :?

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:49 pm

Tora wrote: wowowow!! can this be reffered to orthodox christianity?? I am not religious but can't keep silent when... I can :lol: Is it so important - all our believes and religions? does it really matter? you are a young and nice girl why to put you mind full of that religions and so on? :?
It doesn't matter if I'm young or old. It just bugs me when people follow others without knowing if what they're following is right or not.
For instance, catholics here like to pray to idols which are statues of dead people called saints. Why don't they pray to God instead of those idols? Isn't God powerful enough to help them? They think they're true believers but there they are worshipping false gods.
Now if they read the bible, they would know that their church follows lots of beliefs the Bible is against.

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Post by Oriani » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:21 pm

Lalee wrote:
Tora wrote: wowowow!! can this be reffered to orthodox christianity?? I am not religious but can't keep silent when... I can :lol: Is it so important - all our believes and religions? does it really matter? you are a young and nice girl why to put you mind full of that religions and so on? :?
It doesn't matter if I'm young or old. It just bugs me when people follow others without knowing if what they're following is right or not.
For instance, catholics here like to pray to idols which are statues of dead people called saints. Why don't they pray to God instead of those idols? Isn't God powerful enough to help them? They think they're true believers but there they are worshipping false gods.
Now if they read the bible, they would know that their church follows lots of beliefs the Bible is against.
Wow!!! How odd!! I'm Catholic and we're( my family and Venezuelan) are not like that!!! My parents used to be like those in ur country but they realized that it wasn't good.We're still Catholic, but we don't believe in those Idols :? I know some do that and I don't understand, I mean, I don't get why Catholicism adopted that belief! :(

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:35 pm

Lalee wrote: For instance, catholics here like to pray to idols which are statues of dead people called saints. Why don't they pray to God instead of those idols? Isn't God powerful enough to help them? They think they're true believers but there they are worshipping false gods.
Now if they read the bible, they would know that their church follows lots of beliefs the Bible is against.
Same thing for Buddhists who worship Buddha statues and do all kinda praying. I don't think it's nonsense, though. It's just a way to show your respect. Whatever fits you!

Last time, we had a huge argument in our world religions class about Muslims who chanted to hang the guys who did the caricatures. My teacher said one of the differences between a Buddhist, a Christian, and a Muslim is the way they show their worship. Even within each religion, there are people who worship in different ways.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:39 pm

Oriani wrote: Wow!!! How odd!! I'm Catholic and we're( my family and Venezuelan) are not like that!!! My parents used to be like those in ur country but they realized that it wasn't good.We're still Catholic, but we don't believe in those Idols :? I know some do that and I don't understand, I mean, I don't get why Catholicism adopted that belief! :(
I don't understand either, Oriani.
The only thing I know is that they have strange beliefs.
So I guess you go to church every Sunday, right? What's the first thing you see when you enter? Here most churches are scary, full of a bunch of statues.

The weirdest thing about Catholicism is that they worship Mary more than God. Why would I want to worship a woman who was just like me? The only difference between me and her is that she got chosen. She didn't remain virgin all her life so she was just a regular woman who got God's blessing and that's it.

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Post by Tora » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:47 pm

I always thought that religion is a descreet agreement between you and god you worship - not the best "description" but still... why do you care about other people? follow your way and reach Heaven or whateverelse, but you can't make the world catholics and christian change! I have never read bible from cover to cover - I don't feel embarassed or something - I don't need it at this very moment - and it is my own business... like it is their own business to pray to god mary-not-vergin or idols
everyone has his own way to god
Last edited by Tora on Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:48 pm

LennyeTran wrote: Same thing for Buddhists who worship Buddha statues and do all kinda praying. I don't think it's nonsense, though. It's just a way to show your respect. Whatever fits you!
I don't really know much about Buddhism so I can't say much about it. I guess they have a book they follow as well that's similar to the Bible?
LennyeTran wrote: Last time, we had a huge argument in our world religions class about Muslims who chanted to hang the guys who did the caricatures. My teacher said one of the differences between a Buddhist, a Christian, and a Muslim is the way they show their worship. Even within each religion, there are people who worship in different ways.
Your teacher might be right but it really depends on the type of religion they're into.
Catholics and Christians both believe in the Bible, right? Now if in the Bible says that God does not like it when people worship other false gods, idols or whatever we want to call them...Why do they still do it? Isn't that stupid?

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:02 pm

Tora wrote:I always thought that religion is a descreet agreement between you and god you worship - not the best "description" but still... why do you care about other people? follow your way and reach Heaven or whateverelse, but you can't make the world catholics and christian change! I have never read bible from cover to cover - I don't feel embarassed or something - I don't need it at this very moment - and it is my own business... like it is their own business to pray to god mary-not-vergin or idols
everyone has his own way to god
Let me ask you something, would people know all the things they know already about God if they hadn't read the Bible?
I don't think they would.
Now, Christians have a mission. They're supposed to share the Gospel to others and show them the right path. If someone is wrong about something, aren't you supposed to tell them that? They don't try to change anything. The only thing they do is letting people know that the way they believe in God is not according to what the Bible says. Now if they say they have their own way to believe in things, now that would be called stubbornness.
If they call themselves Christians, they wouldn't think that way because their beliefs are based on the Bible.

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Post by Oriani » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:13 pm

Lalee wrote:
Oriani wrote: Wow!!! How odd!! I'm Catholic and we're( my family and Venezuelan) are not like that!!! My parents used to be like those in ur country but they realized that it wasn't good.We're still Catholic, but we don't believe in those Idols :? I know some do that and I don't understand, I mean, I don't get why Catholicism adopted that belief! :(
I don't understand either, Oriani.
The only thing I know is that they have strange beliefs.
So I guess you go to church every Sunday, right? What's the first thing you see when you enter? Here most churches are scary, full of a bunch of statues.

The weirdest thing about Catholicism is that they worship Mary more than God. Why would I want to worship a woman who was just like me? The only difference between me and her is that she got chosen. She didn't remain virgin all her life so she was just a regular woman who got God's blessing and that's it.
Yes, I go to Chruch every Sunday, but fortunately me and my family don't believe such Idols! We recognize that Mary was Jesus's mom and about the Angel who told her about the baby. That's O.K; but those Saints and so on??? I don't like it.I mean, ok, they were good people when they were alive, but I don't understand why they have to be Saints and we have to pray them. Some people say that I'm not a good Catholic because of that, but why not?? I do Believe in Jesus Christ and God, I think is the most important thing. But I do love being Catholic and I respect it!!! :P

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Post by Tora » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:20 pm

Lalee wrote: Let me ask you something, would people know all the things they know already about God if they hadn't read the Bible?
I don't think they would.
I agree here
Lalee wrote:Now, Christians have a mission. They're supposed to share the Gospel to others and show them the right path.

Muslims say they are doing particularly the same
Lalee wrote:If someone is wrong about something, aren't you supposed to tell them that? They don't try to change anything. The only thing they do is letting people know that the way they believe in God is not according to what the Bible says. Now if they say they have their own way to believe in things, now that would be called stubbornness.
If they call themselves Christians, they wouldn't think that way because their beliefs are based on the Bible.
I guess that every religion is based on some morality - this is the basis of people behavior. here is a quote from a book (after Somerset Maugham) I found not so long time ago - it coincides with my opinion completely

Code: Select all

... You have thrown aside a creed, but you have preserved the ethic which was based upon it. To all intents you are a Christian still, and if there is a God in Heaven you will undoubtedly receive your reward. The Almighty can hardly be such a fool as the churches make out. If you keep His laws I don't think He can care a packet of pins whether you believe in Him or not...
(Of Human Bondage, chapter 45)

this is just for me when I think about praying, visiting church and all that kind of stuff true christians are supposed to do (or not supposed to according to the bible) - if you follow god's law you are true christian and not matter how you pray and how you cross yourself

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Post by Oriani » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:39 pm

Perfect. Tora! :P

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Post by Tora » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:42 pm

Oriani wrote:Perfect. Tora! :P
not at all :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: (my turn to turn red :P )

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Post by Oriani » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:46 pm

Tora wrote:
Oriani wrote:Perfect. Tora! :P
not at all :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: (my turn to turn red :P )
Hahaha did u see? It's easy to get blushed :P

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:59 pm

Oriani wrote: Yes, I go to Chruch every Sunday, but fortunately me and my family don't believe such Idols! We recognize that Mary was Jesus's mom and about the Angel who told her about the baby. That's O.K; but those Saints and so on??? I don't like it.I mean, ok, they were good people when they were alive, but I don't understand why they have to be Saints and we have to pray them. Some people say that I'm not a good Catholic because of that, but why not?? I do Believe in Jesus Christ and God, I think is the most important thing. But I do love being Catholic and I respect it!!! :P
So you love being catholic even when there are some things you disagree on? Isn't that odd?
I think you like it because all your family is into it too.
Why would someone love being part of a group when he or she didn't even understand it??? :shock:

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:07 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: Same thing for Buddhists who worship Buddha statues and do all kinda praying. I don't think it's nonsense, though. It's just a way to show your respect. Whatever fits you!
I don't really know much about Buddhism so I can't say much about it. I guess they have a book they follow as well that's similar to the Bible?
Bunch of books, not just one like the Bible.
Lalee wrote:Your teacher might be right but it really depends on the type of religion they're into.
Catholics and Christians both believe in the Bible, right? Now if in the Bible says that God does not like it when people worship other false gods, idols or whatever we want to call them...Why do they still do it? Isn't that stupid?
But the Bible was written by men!!! For example, we know God doesn't like killing, but Christians believe in the Judgement Day. And the Bible says believe in Jesus Christ, for you'll be saved. However, what if a person who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ but a nice person and a person who believes in him but is a murder, who would be saved?

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:11 pm

Lalee wrote:
The weirdest thing about Catholicism is that they worship Mary more than God. Why would I want to worship a woman who was just like me? The only difference between me and her is that she got chosen. She didn't remain virgin all her life so she was just a regular woman who got God's blessing and that's it.
I don't know. I asked Chris and he said it's more about respect than worshipping. Same like you respect Mother Teresa.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:14 pm

LennyeTran wrote: But the Bible was written by men!!!
Not exactly. God had to use men to write it. I don't think He has hands to do it Himself. :)
Listen to this:
2 Peter 1, 20-21
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

LennyeTran wrote: For example, we know God doesn't like killing, but Christians believe in the Judgement Day. And the Bible says believe in Jesus Christ, for you'll be saved. However, what if a person who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ but a nice person and a person who believes in him but is a murder, who would be saved?

Although what I'm about to say might sound unfair, it's the truth. The murderer would be saved.

God only accepts the ones who believe in His son, Jesus. To him we are the same. All human beings have good and bad sides so there's really not much difference to God.
To Him, there's only one way for people to go to heaven and that's Jesus.
And through the Bible He gives us many examples.

In Exodus 12 there's this story about the Passover.
12For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
13And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt

He asked the israelites to slaughter an animal without defect and with some of its blood they had to put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of their houses.
I bet there were nice and bad people before our eyes in those houses but, did God care about that? He only cared about the blood painted. If they saw the blood, that house got saved and if HE didn't, they were destroyed. As simple as that.
The only people who got saved were the ones who followed and believed in what God told them to do.

Even Egyptians could've gotten saved if they had believed in that.

The same goes with the story in Luke 23 about two criminals who were sentenced to death like Jesus was. Both of them were criminals and deserved to die on the cross but only one got saved. Did he do a good deed? Was he a good person? Only one of them recognized Jesus as the saviour by asking Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom and we can see he got saved when Jesus told him that this criminal was going to be with Him in paradise.
Also there are more stories like these ones where God shows us that trying to be a good person will not lead us to heaven.

So we can conclude that going to heaven does not depend on our good deeds or how nice people we are.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:46 pm

LennyeTran wrote: I don't know. I asked Chris and he said it's more about respect than worshipping. Same like you respect Mother Teresa.
Well to me, what they do with Mary is called worship. They even dare call her "Mother of God" Like, what the heck is that?

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:56 pm

Tora wrote: this is just for me when I think about praying, visiting church and all that kind of stuff true christians are supposed to do (or not supposed to according to the bible) - if you follow god's law you are true christian and not matter how you pray and how you cross yourself
I know what you mean but God doesn't care much what your point of view is. It sounds kind of selfish but how can we know the way we think it's right or not? How can we be 100% of that? I think He knows better than us.
Isaiah 55
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Admiral

Post by Admiral » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:38 pm

The professor is always right.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:46 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: But the Bible was written by men!!!
Not exactly. God had to use men to write it. I don't think He has hands to do it Himself. :)
Permission to laugh, please? :lol: :lol: One question, how does God look like to you?

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:52 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: I don't know. I asked Chris and he said it's more about respect than worshipping. Same like you respect Mother Teresa.
Well to me, what they do with Mary is called worship. They even dare call her "Mother of God" Like, what the heck is that?
It seems like that to me, but respect can be seen as worshipping when it comes to religions. In Vietnamese, Virgin Mary is Me Maria or Me Dong Trinh (Virgin). They called her Me (Mother) Thien Chua (Jesus Christ) (Mother of Jesus Christ if you translated it). I don't know about English version. I have to ask Chris.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:41 pm

Lalee wrote: Although what I'm about to say might sound unfair, it's the truth. The murderer would be saved.

God only accepts the ones who believe in His son, Jesus. To him we are the same. All human beings have good and bad sides so there's really not much difference to God.
To Him, there's only one way for people to go to heaven and that's Jesus.
Yours and my cousin's and Chris's explanation are different. According to my cousin and Chris, the one who killed and believed in Jesus Christ won't be forgiven of sins; therefore, denied Heaven. The nice person who didn't believe in Jesus Christ would go to hell and would be saved to Heaven when he acknowledged Jesus Christ. They both ended up in hell for their own sins.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:51 pm

Lalee wrote:
The same goes with the story in Luke 23 about two criminals who were sentenced to death like Jesus was. Both of them were criminals and deserved to die on the cross but only one got saved. Did he do a good deed? Was he a good person? Only one of them recognized Jesus as the saviour by asking Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom and we can see he got saved when Jesus told him that this criminal was going to be with Him in paradise.
Also there are more stories like these ones where God shows us that trying to be a good person will not lead us to heaven.

So we can conclude that going to heaven does not depend on our good deeds or how nice people we are.
You said both of them were criminals though. Not one of them was nice and one was not and the unkind person got saved because he acknowledged Jesus as a savior.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:29 pm

LennyeTran wrote: Yours and my cousin's and Chris's explanation are different. According to my cousin and Chris, the one who killed and believed in Jesus Christ won't be forgiven of sins; therefore, denied Heaven.
I thought Jesus came to save us from sin and hell.
So now if the murderer believed and still goes to hell..what's the point in believing in Jesus'death??
Ask them this question, if Jesus came to this earth to save us from sin, what role do we play in that sacrifice? I mean, if God says we're saved through Christ, what else is left to do?
LennyeTran wrote: The nice person who didn't believe in Jesus Christ would go to hell and would be saved to Heaven when he acknowledged Jesus Christ. They both ended up in hell for their own sins.

he would go to hell and would be saved to heaven? How can someone go to hell and then go to heaven?
Yes, both of them sinned but there's one difference between them. One believed and they other didn't. Salvation is about believing and faith rather than doing something.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:31 pm

LennyeTran wrote: You said both of them were criminals though. Not one of them was nice and one was not and the unkind person got saved because he acknowledged Jesus as a savior.
Uh huh so... what's your point? :?:

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:35 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: Yours and my cousin's and Chris's explanation are different. According to my cousin and Chris, the one who killed and believed in Jesus Christ won't be forgiven of sins; therefore, denied Heaven.
I thought Jesus came to save us from sin and hell.
So now if the murderer believed and still goes to hell..what's the point in believing in Jesus'death??
If you believe in Jesus Christ; hence, you would believe in his teaching. This is what they mean. And if you believe in his teaching, why would you go against it to kill others? They say you can't fake your way out to heaven by just saying you've acknowledged when you won't follow his teaching afterwards.

Lalee wrote:Ask them this question, if Jesus came to this earth to save us from sin, what role do we play in that sacrifice? I mean, if God says we're saved through Christ, what else is left to do?
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. :?
Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: The nice person who didn't believe in Jesus Christ would go to hell and would be saved to Heaven when he acknowledged Jesus Christ. They both ended up in hell for their own sins.

he would go to hell and would be saved to heaven? How can someone go to hell and then go to heaven?
Yes, both of them sinned but there's one difference between them. One believed and they other didn't. Salvation is about believing and faith rather than doing something.
When he went to hell, then he would realize there was hell and heaven and there was the presence of Jesus Christ and his mind would be enlighted. Thus, when he acknowledged Jesus Christ and his teaching, he'll go to heaven.

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Post by jeffcox » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:35 pm

The only way to God is to praise him.

So, he's egoistic, self-centred and really loves himself.

The Bible is full of evidence to uphold this statement.

If you don't do what God says, and you don't follow his rules, and if you don't recognize him... You're really up the creek without a paddle!

So, do Christians do good things because they will get into heaven (be rewarded), which would be a very egoistic thing to do?

Why be good at all? I mean, you can be as evil and terrible as you want to be throughout your life, then at the moment you meet God, you just beg his forgiveness and BINGO, freeway to heaven.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:36 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: You said both of them were criminals though. Not one of them was nice and one was not and the unkind person got saved because he acknowledged Jesus as a savior.
Uh huh so... what's your point? :?:
:twisted: It doesn't look like my example. DUH, slow-ee. :lol: :lol:

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:39 pm

jeffcox wrote: Why be good at all? I mean, you can be as evil and terrible as you want to be throughout your life, then at the moment you meet God, you just beg his forgiveness and BINGO, freeway to heaven.
Exactly! That's what I said to my cousin, and she said it's a wrong interpretation. Believing in Christ is a semi-guarantee ticket for you to be in heaven; however, you have to follow his teaching. Oherwise, you're just a common sinner.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:39 pm

LennyeTran wrote: Permission to laugh, please? :lol: :lol: One question, how does God look like to you?
I knew you were going to laugh.
What does God look like to me?
Well he definitely doesn't look like a human being. There's a part in the Bible that describes Him a little bit.
Revelation 4
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:43 pm

LennyeTran wrote: :twisted: It doesn't look like my example. DUH, slow-ee. :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: You're contagious.
I'll look for a better example then.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:50 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: Permission to laugh, please? :lol: :lol: One question, how does God look like to you?
I knew you were going to laugh.
What does God look like to me?
Well he definitely doesn't look like a human being. There's a part in the Bible that describes Him a little bit.
Revelation 4
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
Have you seen him in your mind?

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:51 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: :twisted: It doesn't look like my example. DUH, slow-ee. :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: You're contagious.
I'll look for a better example then.
:twisted: Hehehehhee my cousin explained to me about that example, and it did not look like mine by the way. You'd better get another one. 8)

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:55 pm

LennyeTran wrote: If you believe in Jesus Christ; hence, you would believe in his teaching. This is what they mean. And if you believe in his teaching, why would you go against it to kill others? They say you can't fake your way out to heaven by just saying you've acknowledged when you won't follow his teaching afterwards.
Yes, they're right. That's why I was going to say something when you gave me the example including the murderer. If someone gets saved and knows what Jesus did for them, he or she just can't be around killing people and be like, "hey, Jesus died for me and washed all my sins away so I can do the hell I want now" NO! It doesn't work that way.
LennyeTran wrote: I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. :?
OK I sense that your cousin and Chris think that people need to do good to go to heaven. If the answer is yes, why did Jesus die for them? Is it better now?
LennyeTran wrote: When he went to hell, then he would realize there was hell and heaven and there was the presence of Jesus Christ and his mind would be enlighted. Thus, when he acknowledged Jesus Christ and his teaching, he'll go to heaven.
Umm... this is weird.
I don't think people have the chance to go to heaven when they're already in hell. God gives us the chance here on earth but it's too late to realize you're actually in hell and then get saved. It doesn't work that way.
Maybe I'm not following you on this. I don't know but I'm kind of confused.

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:03 am

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: If you believe in Jesus Christ; hence, you would believe in his teaching. This is what they mean. And if you believe in his teaching, why would you go against it to kill others? They say you can't fake your way out to heaven by just saying you've acknowledged when you won't follow his teaching afterwards.
Yes, they're right. That's why I was going to say something when you gave me the example including the murderer. If someone gets saved and knows what Jesus did for them, he or she just can't be around killing people and be like, "hey, Jesus died for me and washed all my sins away so I can do the hell I want now" NO! It doesn't work that way.
From what I see a nice person is a half Christian because that person does nice things for others. Is it a big deal if someone believes in Jesus Christ or not? I mean, if one believed in him and went against his teaching, that person would be even worst than the one who didn't believe in him, right?

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:16 am

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. :?
OK I sense that your cousin and Chris think that people need to do good to go to heaven. If the answer is yes, why did Jesus die for them? Is it better now?
They said Jesus died for humans to understand they are sinners and need to repent of your sins and ask for forgiveness.

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Post by Lalee » Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:36 am

LennyeTran wrote: From what I see a nice person is a half Christian because that person does nice things for others. Is it a big deal if someone believes in Jesus Christ or not? I mean, if one believed in him and went against his teaching, that person would be even worst than the one who didn't believe in him, right?
I'm a Christian and I don't do nice things but I know what you mean. You're talking about following Jesus's teaching. Since he did good while he was here, his followers have to do the same thing as well, no?
Superficially we can see that he helped a lot of people. He did things like curing illnesses most of all, right? Not only did he cure their bodies but also he cured them from sin. He didn't come here to teach us to cure people but to show us how to get rid of sin.
The best thing a Christian can do is preaching the Gospel to people who are not born again yet. Jesus never gave alms to the poor. He was always preaching the Gospel everywhere he went.
What would God like better? Saving souls or saving bodies?
If a born-again Christian commits a horrible thing against God, that person does not lose salvation but when he dies, he will have problems. In the bible says that some Christians will be exalted and others will be embarrassed.
So Christianity is not about being nice but believing in Jesus' sacrifice and follow a life depending on the Lord and understanding His will in our lives.

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Post by Lalee » Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:47 am

LennyeTran wrote: :twisted: Hehehehhee my cousin explained to me about that example, and it did not look like mine by the way. You'd better get another one. 8)
OK I've got a good one.
Luke 18
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


So the men who acknowledged himself as a sinner and a wicked person who didn't deserve God's mercy got justified.
So before receiving salvation, you need to know that you're a sinner and that you need God's help. The man who got justified asked for God's mercy.
Sin is like a wall that separates God from people that's why God wants them to get rid of it.

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Post by Lalee » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:02 am

LennyeTran wrote: They said Jesus died for humans to understand they are sinners and need to repent of your sins and ask for forgiveness.
Moses' Law is what makes people understand they're sinners not Jesus' death.
Romans 3
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


And how do they repent? What do they do?
Also if Jesus died for humans and through his death God forgave us all our sins, then why would people need to ask for forgiveness again? :shock:

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:46 pm

Lalee wrote: So Christianity is not about being nice but believing in Jesus' sacrifice and follow a life depending on the Lord and understanding His will in our lives.
I find it a bit contradictory. According to my cousin and Chris, Jesus was born because humans were in the path towards Satan instead of God. They thought they were better than God. They had no conscience. And they felt no remorse. Thus, God promised one would be saved if that person believed in Christ and followed his teaching.

If one understood his teaching and his sacrifice, then one should be nice others because that's what his teaching is all about, isn't it? If one understood all these above and couldn't be nice to others, how would it work? Isn't it a hypocritical thought? I mean, "yeah, I understand his teaching, but do I have to be nice because I'm just a human being?" And then one ends up not being nice. Then ask for forgiveness on the Judgement Day because they understand why Jesus was here on earth?!?!?!?!?!??!!?

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Post by Lalee » Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:31 am

LennyeTran wrote: Thus, God promised one would be saved if that person believed in Christ and followed his teaching.
Uh huh.
LennyeTran wrote: If one understood his teaching and his sacrifice, then one should be nice others because that's what his teaching is all about, isn't it?

Not exactly.
Read this: Luke 4
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.


In verse 18 we can clearly see what Jesus did while he lived on earth. Through all those things, he wanted to show people that their souls were sick with sin and that they needed someone who could cure them from sin.
Jesus also called some people serpents, and generation of vipers and insulted them somehow. Was he being nice to them? He just wanted to show them how wrong they were.
Also His followers were His disciples and we can see through the Bible that their only duty was preaching the Gospel to others. It was not about being nice to others. Most of them left their families to follow Jesus.
So his teaching was not about being nice but showing people that their lives were being led by Satan and that He was there to help them.

LennyeTran wrote: If one understood all these above and couldn't be nice to others, how would it work? Isn't it a hypocritical thought? I mean, "yeah, I understand his teaching, but do I have to be nice because I'm just a human being?" And then one ends up not being nice. Then ask for forgiveness on the Judgement Day because they understand why Jesus was here on earth?!?!?!?!?!??!!?
Where does it say in the Bible that we can ask for forgiveness on the Judgement Day?
God gives us the chance here to get saved through Jesus and when you die sure all people will get to that day and that's when God sends you to heaven or hell. God is the judge, Jesus your defender, the devil your accuser and you the accused.

Christians are people whose job is sharing the Gospel with others, if they do that they're following Jesus's teaching.
Why would God care if you're nice to others or not when He already knows you can't do good? We think we do good but we don't. Before our eyes, some people are good and others are bad but before God's sight, all of us are bad. We say that we have good and bad sides but it doesn't work that way for Him. We're bad period. That's why God can't accept our sacrifice. He needs something perfect. You know that the wages of sin is death, right? So since we're born with sin, we just can't do anything for ourselves to get rid of it because we're like infected and we can't die for our sins either. That's when Jesus comes. Since he's perfect, God can accept his death.
It can be complicated to understand God's heart or the way He sees things but we just live in different worlds.
Can a cockroach understand our world?

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Post by jeffcox » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:48 am

LennyeTran is correct in saying that it's a bit contradictory.

The bible says that we must repent our sins first. Only then, can we be judged on how we followed the teachings of Jesus and be given forgiveness by God.

But there are so many stories in the bible that contradict this statement, as have already been told here, where people have repented their sins and were given God's blessing, even though they did not follow Jesus's teachings.

There are so many, in fact, that it would be more logical to believe that repenting our sins provides a free ticket to heaven.

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Post by jeffcox » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:04 am

Lalee wrote:We're bad period. That's why God can't accept our sacrifice. He needs something perfect. You know that the wages of sin is death, right? So since we're born with sin, we just can't do anything for ourselves to get rid of it because we're like infected and we can't die for our sins either.
That's right. From the moment after we're born, we're all sinners. Damned from the start!

God wants us to be perfect. The only way we can be perfect is to do what He wants and beg Him for mercy. He gives us the ability to think and make decisions and blames us if we don't do what He wants... that's really sick.

He wants us all to be yes-boys, brown-nosers, and bless Him for all that He does for us. In other words, He has to be superior... everything that the bible teaches us is a sin. Therefore, God is a sinner and does not deserve our blessing.

Logic is a wonderful gift... from God :?: :twisted:

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Spirituality VS Religion

Post by BrianFitz » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:11 am

I have browsed through bits of this thread, and I have to say I am saddened and I can now understand why there are holy wars. Purhaps I did not read the postings where people where having intelligent dialogues about religions. Some seem only to be spewing the doctrine so ingrained in the heads since by there religious communities they cloud their judgement with what is right and wrong. Religion has caused such a great divide in all acroos the globe. It's funny to think that Crusaders went to fight muslims because they Believed in the same god they just had different ways of worship. Stupid. Religion blinds people. I know I look at the catholic Family In which I was raised and see the vail of ignorance it cast on me my twelve years of catholic school. There is no one true religion, only one true God. How you coose to worship that God is matter of your own faith and your own understanding of who God is. And don't let anyone take that from you, Not With Bible quotes or Tiraids from a pulpit. No Spiritually leader is closer to God than you are. No one was made great than the other. Keep your religion if you want, I still go to a Catholic Churc but I don't buy everything they sell. Yes, Religion is a busness. I buy what I like and you may say that is convienent and you would be right. I like what makes me feel good and I feel good about it because it is what I feel god wants me to choose.
No I haven't read the bible cover to cover, maybe some day I will. But I am not going to spend years of my life Justing any religion because I was told it was the best religion the one true religion- All religions believe this in one way or another.
I have study several world religions and I have come to discover some claring similarities. I wont tell you what they are as you should look to do the same.
So enough talk about the Bible (a great book written by fallible men) and enough about Catholics and Christians and muslims and buddhists and angostics and enough about who is right and wrong, God can only tell you that. So my advice to is to have faith; have faith in God, Buddha, Alah, mankind,yourself. You decide. It doesn't matter which one you choose as I believe if you believe in anything you believe in God (an omnipotent power that is every where all the time). So stop bickering and start believing...believing is something...anything Just believe. "Spirituality Unites, Religions divide"

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Spirituality VS Religion con

Post by BrianFitz » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:17 am

s"

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Post by MissLT » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:03 pm

Lalee wrote:
In verse 18 we can clearly see what Jesus did while he lived on earth. Through all those things, he wanted to show people that their souls were sick with sin and that they needed someone who could cure them from sin.
Because to him they were indeed sinners. From what I know about the Bible, only Jesus was allowed to join God in heaven without being judged. He was born pure from all sins. Hence, he was a savior to guide people out of their sins.
Lalee wrote:Jesus also called some people serpents, and generation of vipers and insulted them somehow. Was he being nice to them? He just wanted to show them how wrong they were.
My being nice is not about the fake talks, the let's make love not wars ~. My being nice is thou shalt not murder or whatever the ten commandments are. Or a little more to it. A good conscience, good judgement, good common sense, you know.

This is why I said a nice person is already a half Christian. And I don't see anything is wrong with not recognizing Jesus as a savior. I mean, if you live a life with no regret, no shame, no whatsoever, do you need someone to tell you that you're a sinner? I mean, what's the use of living a life without any harm done and being called a sinner?

I once asked my cousin what about monks who don't recognize Jesus as a savior. Would they go to hell or heaven? She said hell. I asked her why. She said because they don't recognize Jesus as a savior. I told her it's not a crime, though. Why would they have to be in hell to feel all ther remorse that they didn't recognize Jesus? Doesn't that mean God likes to punish more than judging you for who you are? :twisted: And a bit of a control freak, I might say. Punish those who don't believe in his work....

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Post by MissLT » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:25 pm

Lalee wrote: Where does it say in the Bible that we can ask for forgiveness on the Judgement Day?
God gives us the chance here to get saved through Jesus and when you die sure all people will get to that day and that's when God sends you to heaven or hell. God is the judge, Jesus your defender, the devil your accuser and you the accused.
You just answered your own question, silly.
Lalee wrote:Why would God care if you're nice to others or not when He already knows you can't do good?
Isn't it a bit contradictory to what Jesus was meant to be here on earth? I mean, wasn't it a total waste of time for him to acknowledge ignorants when he was given the message that people should be ignored? Why would God send Jesus to help humans with their sins when he alread knew they would end up repeating their sins? So was Jesus here just to tell people how sinful they were and not in a mean of a second chance for humans? :?
Lalee wrote:We think we do good but we don't. Before our eyes, some people are good and others are bad but before God's sight, all of us are bad.
It doesn't matter what we've done?

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Post by MissLT » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:27 pm

jeffcox wrote:LennyeTran is correct in saying that it's a bit contradictory.

The bible says that we must repent our sins first. Only then, can we be judged on how we followed the teachings of Jesus and be given forgiveness by God.
This is what I thought.

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Re: Spirituality VS Religion

Post by MissLT » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:38 pm

BrianFitz wrote: So enough talk about the Bible (a great book written by fallible men) and enough about Catholics and Christians and muslims and buddhists and angostics and enough about who is right and wrong, God can only tell you that.
Thank you. We've been having a good conversation so far about the Bible. If you feel like joining in, be our guest. Otherwise, please leave us with our conversation. We have no hostility towards each other even we're talking about the Bible right now. She doesn't tell me her religion is the truest, or she doesn't tell me to check her sites to get the "right" information. Same thing with others in this topic. Thus, I'm pretty okay to discuss with them.

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Post by Danyet » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:39 am

BrianFitz, you sound like a real idiot. You admit that you have not even read the Bible and then attempt to tell us that we have said enough on the subject!

Not only that you assign incorrect motives to the Crusaders. The Crusaders did not worship the same God. The Biblical God's name is "Yahwey". The Muslim god is "Allah" which predates Mohammed as a spirit worshiped by early pagan Arabs.

Lastly, Crusaders were urged on by the political need the fight back the Muslim hordes that had already infected southern Europe and were on the threshold of the Vatican in Rome.
You are the prime example of "a little knowlege is dangerous".

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Post by MissLT » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:44 am

danyet wrote:BrianFitz, you sound like a real idiot. You admit that you have not even read the Bible and then attempt to tell us that we have said enough on the subject!

Not only that you assign incorrect motives to the Crusaders. The Crusaders did not worship the same God. The Biblical God's name is "Yahwey". The Muslim god is "Allah" which predates Mohammed as a spirit worshiped by early pagan Arabs.

Lastly, Crusaders were urged on by the political need the fight back the Muslim hordes that had already infected southern Europe and were on the threshold of the Vatican in Rome.
You are the prime example of "a little knowlege is dangerous".
You just can't help yourself, can you? If you ruined it, I'd ask you to leave, too. Don't you dare ruining it, babe. I have sharp teeth and know how to bite. :twisted:

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Post by MissLT » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:46 am

How have you been, by the way? Still the States? :wink:

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Post by Danyet » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:54 am

Still here for the time being!

Anyway I couldn't help it! That Brian guy makes no sense at all. Why does he even still go to mass? He has no business making comments on Lalee's posts like that.
Hey Brian....go bake a cake or something. :)

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Post by MissLT » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:59 am

danyet wrote:Still here for the time being!

Anyway I couldn't help it! That Brian guy makes no sense at all. Why does he even still go to mass? He has no business making comments on Lalee's posts like that.
Hey Brian....go bake a cake or something. :)
Ahem ahem ahem, Lalee's posts only? You're telling me you don't read mine?!??!?!?! Don't make me scratch your eyes out. :twisted:

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Post by Lalee » Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:00 am

danyet wrote: Hey Brian....go bake a cake or something. :)
:lol: :lol:

Admiral

Post by Admiral » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:30 am

Brian is not the real idiot here.

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Post by MissLT » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:26 pm

Admiral wrote:Brian is not the real idiot here.
If you have nothing to talk about the Bible, I suggest you to go elsewhere or PM Danyet for your personal vendetta. I don't have much time to go further on with this nonsense attack. You've having this little message as a warning.

Do not ruin the thread and make it locked with your selfish little thought, okay. Thank you so much.

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Post by Danyet » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:22 am

The thing that makes the Bible so unique is its historical value. So far the Bible has given many details of ancient life and customs.
Even things written about in the Bible that seemed to be improbable to modern science and historians has eventually been proven to be correct.

One example is the Biblical story of a particular battle between Israelites and Assyrians. The Assyrians had amassed a great army that vastly outnumbered the Israelites. The Israelites feared for their own destruction. However, the Bible states that "the angel of Yahwey went out and in one night slew 85,000 Assyrian soldiers" thereby saving Israel. (I am not sure of the exact number but it was unbelievably large.)

Modern day historians did not believe this story until recently when archeologists found a stone tablet with the legal and royal writings from the king of Assyria on it.
This stone tablet told the same story that the Bible told, except that it was from the Assyrians point of view. It stated that the Assyrian king had the Israelites out numbered but decided to withdraw from the battle with the Israelite because 85,000 of his soldiers died from a plauge in one night.

There are many such stories as this in the Bible. Little slices of ancient life. And predictions that have apparently come true. I find them quite fascinating.

There! Are you happy Lennye? The thread is back on track now.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:25 am

Muaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Of course, I am! :wink:

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Post by jeffcox » Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:37 am

danyet, your last post shows how normal, scientific events were explained and understood as mystical and miraculous workings of God.

It may also explain how Jesus was seen as some gift from God, but may simply have been a Mother Teresa, a person who dedicated his life to helping others.

If we consider that many stories in the bible are considered parables, and many are later explained as natural occurance instead of a miracle or mystical event, then what exactly is left to believe in?

How much of what is left proves that Jesus, or God, is anything more than superstition and over-imagination?

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Post by Danyet » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:17 am

jeffcox wrote:danyet, your last post shows how normal, scientific events were explained and understood as mystical and miraculous workings of God.
My post explained nothing of the sort. I did not attempt to explain how 85,000 men died of a mysterious disease that killed them all in one night. I seriously doubt that science has a proper explanation either!

You can all draw your own conclusions how to explain these occurrences.

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Post by Shazzam » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:21 am

danyet wrote:
jeffcox wrote:danyet, your last post shows how normal, scientific events were explained and understood as mystical and miraculous workings of God.
My post explained nothing of the sort. I did not attempt to explain how 85,000 men died of a mysterious disease that killed them all in one night. I seriously doubt that science has a proper explanation either!

You can all draw your own conclusions how to explain these occurrences.
Applause! 8) :D

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Post by jeffcox » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:42 pm

You could question the idea of 'in one night'.

Many languages have an expression such as in Engish 'overnight' which is often used for something that happens suddenly or very quickly. It doesn't really have to be taken literally to mean during one night only.

And your text does indicate that many events could have a logical explanation.

Again, it's a question of faith. And, I repeat that it is highly improbable, if not impossible, that you could change someone's religious faith through logical argument.

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Post by Danyet » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:44 pm

It matters not whether there are logical scientific reasons or not. That was not the point i was making!!
The point is --- that at one time Biblical stories were simply dismissed as fables by science --- but modern archeology has proven the stories to be accurate in every detail time and time again.

The book covers thousands of years of history and is probably the most important document available to us. For generations it was painstakingly recited and remembered and then painstakingly copied. The Dead Sea Scrolls proved how accurate it has been copied.

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Post by jeffcox » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:07 pm

Of this, I agree with you. It's an invaluable historical document.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:40 pm

But I don't see it as a big deal, though, big D. The Bible was written by men. Therefore, it's not a big surprise that it has historical facts in it. :?

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:43 pm

LennyeTran wrote: Because to him they were indeed sinners. From what I know about the Bible, only Jesus was allowed to join God in heaven without being judged. He was born pure from all sins. Hence, he was a savior to guide people out of their sins.
Very good!
LennyeTran wrote: My being nice is not about the fake talks, the let's make love not wars ~. My being nice is thou shalt not murder or whatever the ten commandments are. Or a little more to it. A good conscience, good judgement, good common sense, you know.
I know what you mean but what I was trying to say is that most people think that Jesus' teaching is all about being a good person, that's why they always try to do good if they want to have a good relation with God. They're like, "Today I've been such a nice person. I did this, I did that" so they feel as if God is proud of them for what they did.
Sometimes when I ask people, "How can someone go to heaven?" They usually say, "You have to be a good person if you want to enter there."
Do you understand what I was getting at?
Now I'm not saying that it's bad to do good for others. But what's wrong is to expect to have a reward from God for doing such things like in this case would be going to heaven.
As for the 10 commandments, read this:
Romans 3, 28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

And there are many similar verses like that one.

LennyeTran wrote: This is why I said a nice person is already a half Christian. And I don't see anything is wrong with not recognizing Jesus as a savior. I mean, if you live a life with no regret, no shame, no whatsoever, do you need someone to tell you that you're a sinner? I mean, what's the use of living a life without any harm done and being called a sinner?
Most people see a Christian like a nice person so I know what you're trying to say. If you meet someone who tells you he is a Christian but you know this person has killed someone, how would you see him? You wouldn't see him as a real Christian, right?
I wouldn't see him as one either.
After you receive salvation, in the Bible says that you're led by the Holy Spirit and I don't think the Holy Spirit will let you do such thing.
Also I don't think a real Christian would do it either since he knows what Jesus did for him. Now let's suppose he does it. Then that would be a problem between him and God. God gave him such person the chance to know the truth about the Gospel and get saved so what that person is supposed to do is sharing what he knows about the Gospel to others and not be around killing people.


LennyeTran wrote:Why would they have to be in hell to feel all ther remorse that they didn't recognize Jesus? Doesn't that mean God likes to punish more than judging you for who you are? :twisted: And a bit of a control freak, I might say. Punish those who don't believe in his work....
God doesn't judge you for who you are. If He did that, I think anyone would be able to enter heaven.
I know it's hard to understand Him but what can we do? For example, can we understand someone whose IQ is beyond ours? A normal person's IQ is..how much? Between 90-100? Now let's say that God has an unlimited IQ. How can we understand Him? There's a way to do it though. It's by throwing away our own beliefs and thoughts.

If He tells us something, I think it's for our own good so I guess it's better to follow Him even when it's hard to understand with our own logic.
Isaiah 29,16
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
"He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter,
"He knows nothing"?


All people want to live the way the want and don't want anyone to interfere in their lives that's why most of them don't want to have anything to do with God or any religion.
But I think it's better to have something rather than nothing, you know?
Last edited by Lalee on Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Lalee » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:23 pm

LennyeTran wrote:Why would God send Jesus to help humans with their sins when he alread knew they would end up repeating their sins? So was Jesus here just to tell people how sinful they were and not in a mean of a second chance for humans?:?

Jesus' sacrifice is eternal. Imagine Jesus dying again and again for the sins that all people commit everyday. Wouldn't that be stupid?
Jesus' death needs to be accepted by faith believing in what God says rather than what our eyes see.
To God there's only one sin that leads people to hell. It's Adam's sin.
Romans 5, 12-13
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So when Jesus came and died, He washed all our sins away. Although we can see the world full of sin, to God a person who believes what He says and accepts Jesus' without caring about his own logic and thoughts, then that person has no sin to God.
I'd explain it better through the old testament but I think it would be too much. People here think I'm preaching or something, you know?
LennyeTran wrote: It doesn't matter what we've done?
Well it seems that to God it doesn't matter too much because He sees us in a different way that we see ourselves. Even if you were a little girl, He'd see you as a sinner because of Adam's sin.
Now after you know the truth about the Gospel, then it does matter how you live before God.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:21 pm

Lalee wrote: I know what you mean but what I was trying to say is that most people think that Jesus' teaching is all about being a good person, that's why they always try to do good if they want to have a good relation with God.
I still can't see the difference, you know. Jesus was here to wash our sins away. He was here to preach us that we were sinners and should repent our sins. He was here to preach us to love and all.

He's well-known even to the non-Christians because of the teaching give the other cheek to your enemy, so both of your cheeks would be evenly slapped. It carries many hidden messages in that story. Being tolerant even to the ignorants, peace within thou, calm, forgiveness, etc. You don't get all that from a not nice person or a Christian who doesn't understand his teaching.

Being nice and being Christian goes hand in hand. You're understood to be nice if you understand his teaching. It's a given; no question asked here. However, if you're a nice person, you're required to understand his teaching to be saved. Hence, this part I don't get.
Lalee wrote: But what's wrong is to expect to have a reward from God for doing such things like in this case would be going to heaven.
Why not? Going to heaven is not a reward to me. It's what you deserve. And if you live your life without shame, remorse, regret or anything, why don't you deserve to go to heaven?

Lalee wrote:Most people see a Christian like a nice person so I know what you're trying to say. If you meet someone who tells you he is a Christian but you know this person has killed someone, how would you see him? You wouldn't see him as a real Christian, right?
I wouldn't see him as one either.
After you receive salvation, in the Bible says that you're led by the Holy Spirit and I don't think the Holy Spirit will let you do such thing.
Also I don't think a real Christian would do it either since he knows what Jesus did for him. Now let's suppose he does it. Then that would be a problem between him and God. God gave him such person the chance to know the truth about the Gospel and get saved so what that person is supposed to do is sharing what he knows about the Gospel to others and not be around killing people.
I don't think you've answered my question in this part. :?

Lalee wrote:God doesn't judge you for who you are. If He did that, I think anyone would be able to enter heaven.
I don't agree with this. If he judged you for who you were, then less people would be allowed to heaven. Christians said Christians would be saved if they asked for forgiveness and acknowledged Jesus despite what they did. That's why I've seen people go to Church every week to confess. And what do you know, the next day they've committed the same sin.

So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus? And why would a less nice Christian go to heaven because he acknowledged Jesus? I thought Jesus died for our sins. Doesn't that mean he died for ignorants who didn't acknowledge him, if this is a sin? How come it's still a sin if people don't acknowledge Jesus? :?


Lalee wrote:I know it's hard to understand Him but what can we do? For example, can we understand someone whose IQ is beyond ours? A normal person's IQ is..how much? Between 90-100? Now let's say that God has an inlimited IQ. How can we understand Him? There's a way to do it though. It's by throwing away our own beliefs and thoughts.
Yes, you may do that. But the problem is people don't even know how wise or powerful God really is. The Bible was written by men. How sure are you to say that they indeed didn't change a bit to suit themselves?

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Post by MissLT » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:27 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:Why would God send Jesus to help humans with their sins when he alread knew they would end up repeating their sins? So was Jesus here just to tell people how sinful they were and not in a mean of a second chance for humans?:?

Jesus' sacrifice is eternal. Imagine Jesus dying again and again for the sins that all people commit everyday. Wouldn't that be stupid?
Jesus' death needs to be accepted by faith believing in what God says rather than what our eyes see.
To God there's only one sin that leads people to hell. It's Adam's sin.
Oh, I see. So in shorts, disobedience is our sin. And not acknowledging Jesus as a savior means we've disobeyed God. And that's why it's a sin, right? :?

Admiral

Post by Admiral » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:03 pm

yes! According to religion, Jesus (as God's son or as a prophet) has come to make people clear that God exists and that we have to believe in him.

If we look at the philosophical side: Work gives you money and demands you setting time in it, partner give you love and demands a love fitting to him/her, parents give you love and they don't demand anything from you. (but you still fight with your parents sometimes, so it's not ideal)
And as the parent's love is true love, the philosophic idea is: Love is the only thing without demanding, so the ideal love would be the love without fight.
That is God, an object which all people love without demanding, the ideal of love. :lol:

So we should thank Jesus...

Hey, I don't believe in God. This is only my own explanation why people believe in Jesus and God and religion.

remember, I'm marxist.

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Post by Danyet » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:34 am

So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus?
He would not necessariy be excluded from heaven. The actual truth about this is clouded. Many christians even preachers do not understand the scriptures.

Many christians do not believe in a place called hell either. Hell is simply a metaphor for not receiving immortallity. Also, the physical place called hell is an invention of the pagan Greeks and adopted into christian beliefs through the corrupted Catholic church of Rome.

Make no mistake: The christian god Yahwey would not condemn any poor person to eternal torture by fire.

This is one of the worst catholic lies perpetrated on the masses and is an afront to the character of the creator himself!

Come on people, use your brain here! Would a god who loves us enough to devise a plan to redeem the entire world back to him actually torture those people who fall short, by burning them alive in a firey furnace but not allow them to even die to escape the pain?
Now if I thought God would actually do that I would join forces with Satan, wouldn't
you?
And, I have to wonder, how many people have joined forces with Satan because of this lie!!!

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Post by jeffcox » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:36 am

LennyeTran wrote:Being nice and being Christian goes hand in hand. You're understood to be nice if you understand his teaching. It's a given; no question asked here. However, if you're a nice person, you're required to understand his teaching to be saved. Hence, this part I don't get.
I understand your argument.

I think it's like this:
Simply being good isn't enough for God.
Recognizing God isn't enough for God.

He wants his cake and eat it! He wants everything and nothing less than that. He wants you to praise him and worship him and thank him for everything because he is God.

"Do what I say and thank me for it." is what God says... just like an army general who expects his soldiers to obey his every order with blind obedience. A soldier with less experience has no right to question a superior's order, imagine such insolence!

Is this what you're trying, so politely, to say?

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:07 am

danyet wrote:
So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus?
He would not necessariy be excluded from heaven. The actual truth about this is clouded. Many christians even preachers do not understand the scriptures.
You know I've asked my cousins and Catholics I know this same question, and they have been having a hard time to answer me.
danyet wrote:Many christians do not believe in a place called hell either. Hell is simply a metaphor for not receiving immortallity. Also, the physical place called hell is an invention of the pagan Greeks and adopted into christian beliefs through the corrupted Catholic church of Rome.
My cousin said hell in Christianity is not a hot, burning place, where devils have big pot of oil and they would throw you it it, or any horrid descriptions people have to scare kids. She said hell is a place where there is no day or night, and where you would remorse for what you did on earth. Right?

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:16 am

jeffcox wrote:
I understand your argument.

I think it's like this:
Simply being good isn't enough for God.
Recognizing God isn't enough for God.
Well, it's more of simply being good isn't enough for God. Because if you acknowledge Jesus means you've obeyed him or so to say; therefore, you'll be saved. However, if you go against the teaching. You'll be damned. Being a nice, non-Christian, on the other hand, is different. It doesn't matter! You'll be damned anyway despite how good you are on earth. As I see God won't judge you, a nice non-Christian, for you'll be ended up in hell.

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Post by Danyet » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:23 am

LennyeTran wrote:
danyet wrote:
So She said hell is a place where there is no day or night, and where you would remorse for what you did on earth. Right?
Well, that is what some people say but they have to be completely wrong!

You see, the Bible states that humans were created a little "lower" than the angels. Angels are Immortal whereas humans are Mortal.
Humans receive immortallity only at the time of the great resurection at the end of the age. Eclesiastes tells us that "The dead know knothing. They have no rememberance of former times and no interaction with the living." "They sleep" "return to dust".

If this is true then they can not be in a hell or purgatory (which is another pagan/catholic idea, not Biblical).

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:25 am

But Adam and Eve were like angels, immortal, until they ate the forbidden food.... :?

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Post by Arale » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:12 am

I was very curious about The Sangreal in The Da Vinci Code. As every document used in that book is true, and so is The Sangreal. This's what I found on the internet. Is really there something hidden behind the Bible?

_Arale_

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Post by MissLT » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:14 am

What's your email, Arale? I'll forward you what my cousin sent to me about the Da Vinci Code. :wink:

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Post by Arale » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:17 am

LennyeTran wrote:What's your email, Arale? I'll forward you what my cousin sent to me about the Da Vinci Code. :wink:
I'm waiting for it! Thanks! :wink:

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Post by Danyet » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:31 am

LennyeTran wrote:But Adam and Eve were like angels, immortal, until they ate the forbidden food.... :?
No. They only ate the fruit from the tree of knowlege of good and evil. It was the tree of life that was to give them immortallity. After they had eaten the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowlege of good and evil God prevented them from from gaining access to the tree of life and thereby obtaining immortallity. God could not have any more corrupted creatures with immortality!!!

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Post by Shazzam » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:53 am

danyet wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:But Adam and Eve were like angels, immortal, until they ate the forbidden food.... :?
No. They only ate the fruit from the tree of knowlege of good and evil. It was the tree of life that was to give them immortallity. After they had eaten the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowlege of good and evil God prevented them from from gaining access to the tree of life and thereby obtaining immortallity. God could not have any more corrupted creatures with immortality!!!
Is it written anywhere in the bible what the fruit was that was on the tree of life? Just curious. I know that they were tempted by the serpent to eat the apple etc but I didn't know about the tree of life.

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Post by Danyet » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:29 am

Again the answer is "No". The name of the fruit is not mentioned.

The fruit form the tree that Adam and Eve ate is not mentioned by name either.
I think it was Renaissance art that gave us the myth of the apple.

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Post by Shazzam » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:08 am

danyet wrote:Again the answer is "No". The name of the fruit is not mentioned.

The fruit form the tree that Adam and Eve ate is not mentioned by name either.
I think it was Renaissance art that gave us the myth of the apple.
SORRY!! I didn't read the whole thread so obviously you have answered this before.

Thanks for the information anyway. :roll:

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Post by Lalee » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:17 pm

LennyeTran wrote: He's well-known even to the non-Christians because of the teaching give the other cheek to your enemy, so both of your cheeks would be evenly slapped. It carries many hidden messages in that story. Being tolerant even to the ignorants, peace within thou, calm, forgiveness, etc. You don't get all that from a not nice person or a Christian who doesn't understand his teaching.
So you don't understand why a good person has to understand Jesus's teaching to get saved?
Let me copy the verse that you are referring to.
Matthew 5, 38
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Through those verses we can see that Jesus is telling us to be good and stand others even if they treat us bad. Now, are we able to do that naturally? No. Most people have a negative reaction. If someone hits them, they will just hit them back.
Jesus wanted people to realize that they were not able to keep the Law, that through Moses' Law they wouldn't be able to get saved but through Him.

Mark 10, 17
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!


According to that person, he was following the commandments well but in his heart he knew he was lacking of something that's why he came up to Jesus and asked him what he needed to do to inherit eternal life. When Jesus asked him to do a nice thing for the poor, he was not able to do it and just left. Through him, we can see that people are not able to follow all the commandments perfectly and God knows it.
This goes for the people who are under the Law: Galatians 3, 10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

LennyeTran wrote: Being nice and being Christian goes hand in hand. You're understood to be nice if you understand his teaching. It's a given; no question asked here. However, if you're a nice person, you're required to understand his teaching to be saved. Hence, this part I don't get.
I hope my explanation above made this clear.

LennyeTran wrote: Why not? Going to heaven is not a reward to me. It's what you deserve. And if you live your life without shame, remorse, regret or anything, why don't you deserve to go to heaven?
If we deserved to go there, Jesus would've never came and died. Why would God have sent him if He had known that we could enter there by ourselves without any help?
It seems that God doesn't think people deserve it.
LennyeTran wrote: I don't agree with this. If he judged you for who you were, then less people would be allowed to heaven. Christians said Christians would be saved if they asked for forgiveness and acknowledged Jesus despite what they did. That's why I've seen people go to Church every week to confess. And what do you know, the next day they've committed the same sin.
I made a mistake in my sentence, "God doesn't judge you for who you are. If He did that, I think anyone would be able to enter heaven."
Replace the "anyone" for "no one". Better now? Sorry, my bad.
As for asking forgiveness over and over again. Those people don't believe in Jesus' death truly.
If God tells them that their sins have been forgotten and washed away.. Then why do they have to ask for forgiveness again?
Hebrews 10, 17
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Now that doesn't mean that you can sin as much as you want. We're weak and most likely to commit sins and that's natural but if we're led by the Holy Spirit, our lives can be changed.
God asks us to live spiritual life not focusing on us or how weak we are but on his Word and the Gospel.
God wants people to receive Jesus' sacrifice and His word through faith.
LennyeTran wrote: So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus? And why would a less nice Christian go to heaven because he acknowledged Jesus? I thought Jesus died for our sins. Doesn't that mean he died for ignorants who didn't acknowledge him, if this is a sin? How come it's still a sin if people don't acknowledge Jesus? :?
Your question makes sense and it's logical. However, to God people who die without acknowledging Jesus as their saviour can't enter heaven. Yeah, Jesus also died for those ignorants who never accepted Him but God accepts those who know they need Jesus to present themselves before God.
God only thinks Jesus deserves to go to heaven now if Jesus advocates for people who believe in Him, then God allows such person to enter.
It's like first someone had a black heart full of sin then when he accepts Jesus' death by faith, his heart is covered with Jesus' blood so God can't see sin anymore in there. So such person is called righteous before God's eyes.

LennyeTran wrote: Yes, you may do that. But the problem is people don't even know how wise or powerful God really is. The Bible was written by men. How sure are you to say that they indeed didn't change a bit to suit themselves?
Yeah, it was written by men but all the messages and thoughts in there are God's.
It's like an illiterate persone comes to you and asks you to write down a letter for her so she dictates and you just write down all she tells you.
As for men changing it, I don't think God would allow something like that to happen.
There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.

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Post by jeffcox » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:58 pm

...However, to God people who die without acknowledging Jesus as their saviour can't enter heaven. Yeah, Jesus also died for those ignorants who never accepted Him but God accepts those who know they need Jesus to present themselves before God.
God only thinks Jesus deserves to go to heaven now if Jesus advocates for people who believe in Him, then God allows such person to enter.


In other words, the fact that we have to recognize Jesus is a capriche, a fancy of his.

I mean, if we do good all our lives, we're damned if we don't recognize Jesus. If God wants us to be good and follow His word, then that should logically be enough for a place in heaven. But no, that's not enough for Him, we have to recognize Him, through Jesus. So egoistic of Him, who Himself claims to be a jealous God... aren't those human flaws and therefore God has no right to judge us.


There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.

Hmm... I have never met anyone who believes in everything in the Bible, as it is written in the Bible. Not one person! But then, I've never met the Pope!

People choose which scriptures they like to follow and how. Plus, the interpretation of the Bible changes with every generation. People burned witches based on scripture from the Bible.

As an example:
Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Personally, I find this idea outrageous and can't understand how a woman would agree to this. We are to follow this scripture and believe that women should be subservient to men?

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Post by MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:26 am

Lalee wrote: If we deserved to go there, Jesus would've never came and died. Why would God have sent him if He had known that we could enter there by ourselves without any help?
It seems that God doesn't think people deserve it.
But I believe there are people who could go to heaven without acknowledging Jesus as a savior, though. What about Buddhist monks, rabis, or other members of any monastic orders beside Christians? Where would they go, heaven or hell? :?

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Post by MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:52 am

Lalee wrote: Yeah, it was written by men but all the messages and thoughts in there are God's.
It's like an illiterate persone comes to you and asks you to write down a letter for her so she dictates and you just write down all she tells you.
As for men changing it, I don't think God would allow something like that to happen.
If you had no faith that those people would do anything good in the first place, would you trust them to do something for you? And if you had no one else to do it beside them, how sure could you say they wouldn't change a thing?

As you said, humans can do no good. That's why we need to acknowledge Jesus to be saved. If we were born with sins and can't get rid of them, changing something in the Bible wouldn't make a big deal, right? It's a part of our already-born-with sins. Therefore, we'd get the chance to ask for forgiveness at the end, anyway. Right?
Lalee wrote:There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.
Since the dawn of life humans have already been believing in something. We're spiritual species. We're too fragile to deal with this cruel world. And especially when we understand life and death life is even harder. For example, when our loved ones get hurt or are about to pass away or other problems, we'll pray to something more powerful than us just in hope that there would be a miracle.

Imagine if someone understood all this and used it on you to persuade you to believe him/her? Would you believe his/her ~ when you were desperate? I believe there'd be a big chance that you would. I never deny men who wrote the Bible were not intelligent. In fact, they were too brilliant and perspicacious to envisage what people fear and want most.

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Post by MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:03 am

jeffcox wrote:
As an example:
Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Personally, I find this idea outrageous and can't understand how a woman would agree to this. We are to follow this scripture and believe that women should be subservient to men?
There's one part in the New Testtament that is similar to this one (I can't remember it now. I'll look for it again). I read and I found it quite absurd. I pointed it to my bf and asked, "and you believe in this book?" He just rolled his eyes. :lol: :lol:

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Post by jeffcox » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:38 am

Oh, there's more!

1 Corinthians 11:8-9
"For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."


There are even more such citations of sexism agains women in the Bible.

Like I said, people choose the parts they want to believe. For this, there is no Christianism if everybody has their own dogma.

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Post by MissLT » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:45 am

This, I have to say, happens in every religion. In Buddhism, before women were considered as people who couldn't be enlightened at all. There was no way for women to become a Buddha. I did not know it until my mom told me about this. That was when I decided to give religions a bit of a reading.

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