Battle for Taiwan

Unknownsu · Post by **Unknownsu** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:22 pm

Heated arguments have been made on both sides. China wants control over the small island of Taiwan for political pride and economical growth and has stated many times that they will not give up. The Taiwanese government wants independence for its people and democracy throughout the island. The US and Japan have sided with Taiwan and fears of war has been on the horizon.

Will there be war? What is your take on this?

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:34 am

Taiwan, of course. Mainland China has been playing a 'big brother' to other countries. Now it's time it should stop. And no more island should become another communist area, please.

Admiral · Post by **Admiral** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:56 am

China, of course. And I bet people who don't understand the historical background to be quiet and to read.

Danyet · Post by **Danyet** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:10 am

The people of Taiwan have already spoken so this question is useless waste of time. Taiwan will remain free and free of China.

Admiral · Post by **Admiral** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:23 am

Ohyes, USA will solve this problem, won't they?

Unknownsu · Post by **Unknownsu** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:08 am

Read the question correctly, guys. I did not ask who will win if there is an outbreak of war, I asked do you think war between these two nations will happen and what reasons do you have for believing so.

Unknownsu · Post by **Unknownsu** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:09 am

danyet wrote:The people of Taiwan have already spoken so this question is useless waste of time. Taiwan will remain free and free of China.

Perhaps you are right since whatever is discussed here will have no effect on what will happen. Just because Taiwan wants freedom, they won't necessarily get it handed to them.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:48 pm

Unknownsu wrote:Read the question correctly, guys. I did not ask who will win if there is an outbreak of war, I asked do you think war between these two nations will happen and what reasons do you have for believing so.

You asked for my takes and I took Taiwan with my reasons. Did I miss something? :?

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:50 pm

Admiral wrote:China, of course. And I bet people who don't understand the historical background to be quiet and to read.

Admiral, we've had a dicussion about this in the past, and I know you long for communism, but don't understand historical background???? Give me a break, dude....

Danyet · Post by **Danyet** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:50 pm

It is hard to say if USA will make good on it's promise to back Taiwan if China attacks. It would not surprize me if USA was too chicken to help little Taiwan in her time of need, especially after the beating the radical left and leftist media has given USA on Iraq.

Danyet · Post by **Danyet** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:53 pm

edit double post

Unknownsu · Post by **Unknownsu** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:01 pm

LennyeTran wrote:
Unknownsu wrote:Read the question correctly, guys. I did not ask who will win if there is an outbreak of war, I asked do you think war between these two nations will happen and what reasons do you have for believing so.
You asked for my takes and I took Taiwan with my reasons. Did I miss something? :?

Yeah, you missed the entire question. I asked you what's your take (your opinions and ideas), not what side you will take.

Unknownsu · Post by **Unknownsu** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:06 pm

danyet wrote:It is hard to say if USA will make good on it's promise to back Taiwan if China attacks. It would not surprize me if USA was too chicken to help little Taiwan in her time of need, especially after the beating the radical left and leftist media has given USA on Iraq.

I understand that China has become one of the world's superpowers. I honestly don't think this war will happen anytime soon. China, the US and Japan cannot handle such a blow to their economies. And as you said, the Bush administration's support over Iraq has been dwindling rapidly. If the US and Japan opts to stay out of this debate over the island, with China's standing army, Taiwan would be crushed in a matter of days.

Is the US afraid of China? In a way, they should be since China has the largest standing army in the world but they're not well equipped. China would not risk fighting the US because NATO would step in and trade embargoes will ensue which, in turn, would crash the fragile Chinese economy.

Danyet · Post by **Danyet** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:40 am

I think that China is just crazy enough to stand by the principle that they believe in regardless of the possible consequences. That's scary!

netyugi · Post by **netyugi** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:16 am

Unknownsu wrote:Read the question correctly, guys. I did not ask who will win if there is an outbreak of war, I asked do you think war between these two nations will happen and what reasons do you have for believing so.

I feel sory for you!
Taiwan isn't a nation, before, now and forever!
In 1949, GMT government gave way from mainland of China to Taiwan, and PRC established. But Taiwan is still a part of China, even it is not belong to PRC. Can you say that Taiwanese is not Chinese?
If communism is good thing, why not?

Danyet · Post by **Danyet** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:46 am

netyugi wrote: Taiwan isn't a nation, before, now and forever!
In 1949, GMT government gave way from mainland of China to Taiwan, and PRC established. But Taiwan is still a part of China, even it is not belong to PRC. Can you say that Taiwanese is not Chinese?
If communism is good thing, why not?

Since China has recently banned SKYPE and Wikapedia I doubt that you can make an informed opinion.

Unknownsu · Post by **Unknownsu** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:50 am

danyet wrote:I think that China is just crazy enough to stand by the principle that they believe in regardless of the possible consequences. That's scary!

I fear you are right. Since Asians put a lot of emphasis on "face", it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see China going all out on Taiwan fully aware of what will happen to their country in the aftermath.

Unknownsu · Post by **Unknownsu** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:58 am

netyugi wrote: I feel sory for you!
Taiwan isn't a nation, before, now and forever!
In 1949, GMT government gave way from mainland of China to Taiwan, and PRC established. But Taiwan is still a part of China, even it is not belong to PRC. Can you say that Taiwanese is not Chinese?
If communism is good thing, why not?

You feel sorry for me? And why's that?

So what if Taiwanese are Chinese? I'm Chinese, does that mean I have to live in China?

Is Taiwan currently part of China? The Taiwanese doesn't seem to think so.

Does China have control over Taiwan? Absolutely not!

Is communism a good thing? I don't think so and it seems more than half the world agrees with me.

Please, if you come here to contribute intelligent conversation, then by all means, speak your mind. But if you come here with a mind full of rehearsed patriotic slogans, then I advise you to get off your high patriotic horse and see the world through an unbiased eye. I understand this is a sensitive topic for most Chinese and Taiwanese. As for the Chinese, ask yourself, honestly, what do you personally gain if Taiwan returns to China?

netyugi · Post by **netyugi** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:42 pm

Unknownsu wrote:
netyugi wrote: I feel sory for you!
Taiwan isn't a nation, before, now and forever!
In 1949, GMT government gave way from mainland of China to Taiwan, and PRC established. But Taiwan is still a part of China, even it is not belong to PRC. Can you say that Taiwanese is not Chinese?
If communism is good thing, why not?
You feel sorry for me? And why's that?

So what if Taiwanese are Chinese? I'm Chinese, does that mean I have to live in China?

Is Taiwan currently part of China? The Taiwanese doesn't seem to think so.

Does China have control over Taiwan? Absolutely not!

Is communism a good thing? I don't think so and it seems more than half the world agrees with me.

Please, if you come here to contribute intelligent conversation, then by all means, speak your mind. But if you come here with a mind full of rehearsed patriotic slogans, then I advise you to get off your high patriotic horse and see the world through an unbiased eye. I understand this is a sensitive topic for most Chinese and Taiwanese. As for the Chinese, ask yourself, honestly, what do you personally gain if Taiwan returns to China?

1. I am sorry for you because you said Taiwan is a nation.

2. I don't think if someone is Chinese, then he must live in China.

3. Taiwan is a part of (Republic of) China! All of Taiwanese think so.

4. The same as above, (Republic of) China is controlling over Taiwan.

5. What communism do you think is not a good thing? I don't think the Chinese Communist Party is a really Communist Party. Do you know USSR? Even if it is not better than USA, it is as good as USA. And now it is capitalism, is it better than USSR?

6. You are correct, I cannot get any personally gain from it after Taiwan returns to China, as well as Hongkong and Macau come back to China. But China is our motherland, I love China is not means I love the Chinese Communist Party. Maybe you cannot understand this point.

I come here just for practising my english, and I am sorry my english isn't good enough.

You maybe missed what all I said is that Taiwan is still a part of China!

Admiral · Post by **Admiral** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:57 pm

Since China has recently banned SKYPE and Wikapedia I doubt that you can make an informed opinion.

What are you talking about? http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5
http://blog.xintiantang.com/skype/e_396.html

Admiral · Post by **Admiral** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:01 pm

I really doubt why europeans help USA beating Iraq, and why the USA wanna support Taiwan.
If they haven't killed somebody for a long time, they can buy half-life.

http://half-life2.com/

Danyet · Post by **Danyet** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:06 pm

Admiral wrote:
Since China has recently banned SKYPE and Wikapedia I doubt that you can make an informed opinion.
What are you talking about? http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5
http://blog.xintiantang.com/skype/e_396.html

China Telecom is blocking access to Skype according to reports from people inside the country. China Telecom, according to Shanghai Daily, began blocking in the affluent souther city of Shenzhen near Hong Kong. China Telecom has the broadband internet service that allows access to Skype and has plans to eventually block the service throughout its coverage area nationwide.

Also created is a "black list" of people in China who use the service and those black listed say they have been threatened with fines if they attempt to get around the blocking.

Official word from China Telecom was basic information, "Under the current laws and regulations of China, PC-to-phone services are strictly regulated and only China Telecom and China Netcom are permitted to carry out trials."

China routinely blocks access to web sites on politically sensitive subjects as the banned Falun Gong spiritual movement and the 1989 crackdown at Tiananmen Square, but blockages of sites for purely economic reasons is much less common. One user in Shenzhen complained that the whole thing looks to him like a plot to make back money lost by China Telecom to users who use Skype. China Telecom considers its long distance business as a very important revenue source.

Already China has cracked down on its people as shown by Shi Tao who was sentenced to 10 years in prison on April 27 for "illegally providing state secrets abroad".

The state secrets--He had posted on the internet a government gag order prohibiting the state press from commemorating the 15th anniversary of the ~ crackdown on the 1989 Tiananmen democracy protests.

How did they do it? American companies are helping them. Yahoo provided the contents of Shi Tao's mail account in hopes that the action will win them favour in the eyes of Chinas government so that they have an edge in business and future profits.

"The role that Yahoo played in securing Shi Taos conviction does damage to Yahoo's brand name."--Reporters Without Borders.

Other US software and internet companies, such as Microsoft and Google, have also adapted their services in China in ways that have restricted access to information.

Danyet · Post by **Danyet** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:18 pm

Admiral wrote:
Since China has recently banned SKYPE and Wikapedia I doubt that you can make an informed opinion.
What are you talking about? http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5
http://blog.xintiantang.com/skype/e_396.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... tnG=Search

Unknownsu · Post by **Unknownsu** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:09 pm

You shouldn't feel sorry for me; you should feel sorry for yourself. I asked a question about upcoming war and you came along with your patriotic pride. So maybe Taiwan is not a nation yet, I made a mistake. Perhaps it never will be just like Tibet and how the Chinese government won't grant them independence; ruling with an iron fist.

If Taiwan truly belongs to China and China has complete control over Taiwan, why has there been talks of war and invasion? Why does China currently have 700 ballistic missiles stationed in Fujian province just opposite the Taiwan Strait (This number is said to be increased to 800 in 2006 and by the year 2010, 2000 missiles)? Why does Taiwan have its own president? Is it part of the Chinese tradition to bomb the living daylights out of its own land? Or are the Chinese just bored and want to make Taiwan a bomb testing area?

I think you have mistaken. China is PRC while Taiwan is ROC. Taiwan wants independence but China will never give it to them. Of course, you will agree with China. You will want to strip the Taiwanese of wanting to seperate from the mainland just because Taiwan is Chinese and you love China? In your mind, that justifies everything? You are proud, and I respect you for that but your proudness selfishly denies the Taiwanese of what they want. And I loathe people like you.

netyugi · Post by **netyugi** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:27 am

I'm sorry for myself just because China is not the most powerful country, and it is not the most rich country in the world. Actually, it is a very poor country.
Some Taiwanese want Taiwan to become the 51th state of USA, and some Taiwanese went to Japan to visit "jing guo shen she", maybe they forgot Japanese's aggression to Taiwan also China mainland. They forget the Japanese army killed their forfathers.
I sympathize with Taiwanese, they have the right to keep the status quo, but not ally USA and Japan to threaten to China.
You should loathe the people like Bush not like me. We didn't kill anybody and Mr Bush is killing people everyday.
I hate the government of China for their corruption and canker. I'm proud, not with CCP but Chinese!

Unknownsu · Post by **Unknownsu** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:24 am

So you feel sorry for yourself because China is not as powerful and rich as you want? Why can't you just be content with what you have? Some Taiwanese want to be America's 51st state? Good for them. If they vote and that is what they want, then godspeed to them. Taiwan bringing in the US and Japan is a matter of national security. Let's sum up what has happened so far...

-Taiwan wants to declare independence
-China threatens to go to war
-Under the Taiwan Relations Act, the US vows to defend Taiwan from China
-China passes an "anti-secession law" which paves the way for aggression towards Taiwan
-China sets over 500 ballistic missiles along the coast of Fujian, aimed directly at Taiwan
-Because Taiwan is not recognized as an independent state, countries such as the US can only sell the island defensive arms which cannot defend it against a possible future Chinese missile and amphibious assult

Now, if you were in Taiwan's position and you were given only 2 options, surrender or face complete annihilation, what would you do? The Taiwanese did what was natural, they sought security from other nations. Can you really blame them?

After all that's been said and done, deep inside, you just want Taiwan to reunify with China, right? The thing is, you, and many other Chinese comrades around you, have no reason other than your love for your country. And that, my friend, is blind patriotism.

So now you want to bring this debate over to Japanese war crimes? In my opinion, any Chinese person who wants reconciliation with Japan is a noble person in my books. Forgive but do not forget.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:36 am

Unknownsu wrote: Yeah, you missed the entire question. I asked you what's your take (your opinions and ideas), not what side you will take.

:? Hmmm... I thought I stated out my thoughts and the reasons why I leaned toward more to Taiwan than Mainland China in this matter, which answered your question, but it didn't seem like it to you. Oh well...
Anyhoo, I think there should be a negotiation between Taiwan and Mainland China about the island. Mainland China has to meet Taiwanese's demands somewhere. Shared government, shared power, or something like that. Taiwan has been having its own government; therefore, it's ridiculous if it goes back just to be a province of China as like Hong Kong

.

Unknownsu · Post by **Unknownsu** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:52 am

Unknownsu wrote:Will there be war? What is your take on it?

LennyeTran wrote:Taiwan, of course. Mainland China has been playing a 'big brother' to other countries. Now it's time it should stop. And no more island should become another communist area, please.

Lennye, how does that answer my question?

Hong Kong is not just another province. It actually got special attention when it reunited with China with slogans of "No change in 50 years" and "One country, two systems." Hong Kong retains its own legal system, currency, treaty negotiation rights, etc. Such a promised was not made to Taiwan.

China has no reason to meet any of Taiwan's demands. Right now, it's all about Taiwan. In a way, choosing independence is tantamount to choosing war.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:05 am

Unknownsu wrote:
Unknownsu wrote:Will there be war? What is your take on it?

LennyeTran wrote:Taiwan, of course. Mainland China has been playing a 'big brother' to other countries. Now it's time it should stop. And no more island should become another communist area, please.
Lennye, how does that answer my question?

I still see it my way that I have answered your question in my way.

Unknownsu wrote:Hong Kong is not just another province. It actually got special attention when it reunited with China with slogans of "No change in 50 years" and "One country, two systems." Hong Kong retains its own legal system, currency, treaty negotiation rights, etc. Such a promised was not made to Taiwan.

They said it like that, but there are changes have been made in Hong Kong to fit Mainland China's wishes although the time hasn't been up for changes in Hong Kong system yet.

Unknownsu wrote:China has no reason to meet any of Taiwan's demands. Right now, it's all about Taiwan. In a way, choosing independence is tantamount to choosing war.

I don't see it either, but according to some Chinese people, for example our Admiral here, Chinese people should not fight since they're brothers and sisters. Therefore, Mainland China has to meet Taiwan's demand, for they wanted to rule Taiwan. Taiwan would lose its own government controling and everything; Mainland China should pay them back with something to me. As for me, independence as a country with its own system is what Mailand China should pay for Taiwan to not having a war.

Unknownsu · Post by **Unknownsu** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:21 am

I still don't understand, Lennye, I asked if you think there will be war. How did you answer that question? You know what, let's drop it.

LennyeTran wrote:They said it like that, but there are changes have been made in Hong Kong to fit Mainland China's wishes although the time hasn't been up for changes in Hong Kong system yet.

If the time hasn't been up, how do you know that changes will occur? I don't know the situation in Hong Kong so I can't really comment on it.

LennyeTran wrote:Therefore, Mainland China has to meet Taiwan's demand, for they wanted to rule Taiwan. Taiwan would lose its own government controling and everything; Mainland China should pay them back with something to me. As for me, independence as a country with its own system is what Mailand China should pay for Taiwan to not having a war.

I don't think it is China who is afraid of war. The government has been quoted to be not afraid of losing millions of soldiers or losing cities in order to gain Taiwan. They already have nearing 800 ballistic missiles aimed at Taiwan. Not only that, China's military is strengthening with each and every passing day. If anyone's afraid, it's Taiwan and the US. Japan can only support verbally because their armed forces is only capable of 3 to 4 days of all-out conventional warfare. After that, it would be guerilla warfare.

The Chinese "anti-secession law" states, if negotiations can no longer progress, it gives China the right to advance on Taiwan. Taiwan is "officially" a part of China even though it has been governing itself for over 50 years now. So why would China offer something to their own territory, as they see it, for gaining what is already theirs?

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:29 am

Unknownsu wrote:I still don't understand, Lennye, I asked if you think there will be war. How did you answer that question? You know what, let's drop it.

See, you've made a wise decision

.

Unknownsu wrote:If the time hasn't been up, how do you know that changes will occur? I don't know the situation in Hong Kong so I can't really comment on it.

There was a news I read some years ago that Mainland China wanted all the law books in Hong Kong written in Mandarine, law people have to practice it in Mandarine, and some laws would be changed to compatible with the laws in Mainland. I thought nothing would change until the due date occurs. I'll try to find the article to post here for you guys.

Unknownsu wrote:I don't think it is China who is afraid of war. The government has been quoted to be not afraid of losing millions of soldiers or losing cities in order to gain Taiwan. They already have nearing 800 ballistic missiles aimed at Taiwan. Not only that, China's military is strengthening with each and every passing day. If anyone's afraid, it's Taiwan and the US. Japan can only support verbally because their armed forces is only capable of 3 to 4 days of all-out conventional warfare. After that, it would be guerilla warfare.

I never said they were. In fact, it seems like they wanted to bomb Taiwan more than ever to me. However, I said there should be a negotiation to avoid the war because according to some Chinese people in other websites Mainland China and Taiwan are brothers; therefore, they should be reunited and be whole as one. The funny thing to me is that they said Mainland China and Taiwan are brothers, but if Taiwan does not back down to ask for independence, China should bomb Taiwan. I wonder where is the brotherhood? Where is the love? Is it love that if someone you said you love doesn't wanna do something with you, you should make that person do it with force? B!tch-slap, kick in the nuts, punch in the face or even worse like this situation, bombing each other to win? I just don't get it..... :?

Unknownsu wrote:The Chinese "anti-secession law" states, if negotiations can no longer progress, it gives China the right to advance on Taiwan. Taiwan is "officially" a part of China even though it has been governing itself for over 50 years now. So why would China offer something to their own territory, as they see it, for gaining what is already theirs?

Okay, let's called Mailand China is the big house and Taiwan is the small storage house next to the big house. There are two brothers in the big house. A used to make decision in the big house after taking control over the father; however, B doesn't like A's decision. Therefore, B argues with A and doesn't let A make any more decision. A gets mad so A runs out of the big house to the storage house to live. There are already some people in the storage house, and because A was making decisions in the big house, people in the storage house let A run the house and open business to flow money in the house. B now in the big house looks over and sees A building the storage house real good. B then comes over to the storage house or stands in front of the door and yells, "hey, this house is mine because it's on my property." Well, should A give up the storage house and everything he's built because it's on B's property, which technically is also A's since it was A's at first and he just ran out of it? Would it be fair if B takes everything for credits without giving A anything because whatever A makes on his property should be B's? Hmmmmmm...... :?

Unknownsu · Post by **Unknownsu** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:19 am

LennyeTran wrote: There was a news I read some years ago that Mainland China wanted all the law books in Hong Kong written in Mandarine, law people have to practice it in Mandarine, and some laws would be changed to compatible with the laws in Mainland.

Written in Mandarin? Hmm..Forgive me but has there been a mix-up in the transferring of fact, if indeed, that is what it is? As far as I know, China is connected by one writing system unless, of course, the HK law books were all written in English...That would be odd.

LennyeTran wrote:Well, should A give up the storage house and everything he's built because it's on B's property, which technically is also A's since it was A's at first and he just ran out of it? Would it be fair if B takes everything for credits without giving A anything because whatever A makes on his property should be B's? Hmmmmmm...... :?

Amusing example, Lennye, but there was no need for you to write all that out. You already know the answer to your questions. Hong Kong/Macau. After 99 years of British rule, nothing can be said or done, it went back to China. What I said was not an opinion, it's a fact. If Taiwan declares independence, China will attack. That's how it is, it's the China way or no way.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:08 pm

Unknownsu wrote: Amusing example, Lennye, but there was no need for you to write all that out. You already know the answer to your questions. Hong Kong/Macau. After 99 years of British rule, nothing can be said or done, it went back to China. What I said was not an opinion, it's a fact. If Taiwan declares independence, China will attack. That's how it is, it's the China way or no way.

As like you said, the difference between Hong Kong and Taiwan is Hong Kong was lent to Britain; Taiwan has never been. And it's been independent from Mainland China on its own. This is also a fact.

"Kowloon Peninsula south of Boundary Street and Stonecutter's Island were ceded to the British in 1860 under the Convention of Peking after the Second Opium War. Various adjacent lands, known as the New Territories (including New Kowloon and Lantau Island), were then leased by Britain for 99 years, beginning on 1 July 1898 and ending on 30 June 1997." (copied)

This is why I don't think people said much about the reunion of Hong Kong back to Mainland China. People were pissed because Hong Kong would become another communist area and would lose all its specialities in a sense. But Taiwan's case..... well...

Unknownsu · Post by **Unknownsu** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:54 am

I understand where are you coming from but now, try to look at it through the Chinese eye.

After his defeat of the cultural revolution, Chiang Kai Shek fled to Taiwan and there he governed, with his KuoMinTang government, with an iron fist. So technically, Taiwan never seperated and there is no country in this world that recognizes Taiwan's independence. To China, it was, and still is, considered a rogue state; in a way, a rebellion that needs to be squashed. That is why other countries are reluctant to come to Taiwan's aid aside from the US and Japan. France has worded their support for China reclaiming Taiwan.

China is playing the bully. Succumb or die. Taiwan wants to settle the matter peacefully hoping an ultimatum can be reached but China won't even approach the negotiation table. How can you negotiate favours with a party who no longer wants to negotiate, period? So really, it's not a matter of China "should" give something back to the Taiwanese people, it's a matter of China won't.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:09 am

Unknownsu wrote:I understand where are you coming from but now, try to look at it through the Chinese eye.

After his defeat of the cultural revolution, Chiang Kai Shek fled to Taiwan and there he governed, with his KuoMinTang government, with an iron fist. So technically, Taiwan never seperated and there is no country in this world that recognizes Taiwan's independence. To China, it was, and still is, considered a rogue state; in a way, a rebellion that needs to be squashed. That is why other countries are reluctant to come to Taiwan's aid aside from the US and Japan. France has worded their support for China reclaiming Taiwan.

China is playing the bully. Succumb or die. Taiwan wants to settle the matter peacefully hoping an ultimatum can be reached but China won't even approach the negotiation table. How can you negotiate favours with a party who no longer wants to negotiate, period? So really, it's not a matter of China "should" give something back to the Taiwanese people, it's a matter of China won't.

And this is why it's wrong. Totally wrong to me, period.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:12 pm

violet wrote: 5、I strongly hate Canada (where unknownsu lives), since the immigration officer didn't approve my application. . Naturally, I also hate unknownsu (because he lives in Canada). :x 8)

You don't need Canada, Violet. Apply to Australia then

. Live next door to Shazzam. I've heard that the immigration system in Australia is really good. They take care of you from head to toe.

Danyet · Post by **Danyet** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:56 am

The question should be, ”Who is the real China?”.

The Chinese Communist Party seized power 1949. The former government members and those who valued freedom fled to Taiwan, if they were able. It can be argued that Taiwan is the “real” China and China with it’s authoritarian government is the imposter.

China was one of the permanent members of the UN and on the Security Council. When the Communists took control in China, they should have been kicked out of the UN but they were not and now they get to vote on human rights issues in the UN. This is a disgrace. Things were made worse when other nations sucked up to China like Russia and the USA. Russia has been conducting joint military exercises with China. Idiot US Presidents like Nixon and Clinton have sucked up to China and so have many American, Australian and European government entities and corporations in the name of big business or the economy and such.

China should have been shunned, cut-off and ignored by the rest of the world until such time as the people force in a new and freedom loving form of government such as in Taiwan. If we had done this, perhaps we would not now be wondering whether there will war or not.

Taiwan has not left China as much as China has left Taiwan..

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:52 am

danyet wrote:The question should be, ”Who is the real China?”.

The Chinese Communist Party seized power 1949. The former government members and those who valued freedom fled to Taiwan, if they were able. It can be argued that Taiwan is the “real” China and China with it’s authoritarian government is the imposter.

China was one of the permanent members of the UN and on the Security Council. When the Communists took control in China, they should have been kicked out of the UN but they were not and now they get to vote on human rights issues in the UN. This is a disgrace. Things were made worse when other nations sucked up to China like Russia and the USA. Russia has been conducting joint military exercises with China. Idiot US Presidents like Nixon and Clinton have sucked up to China and so have many American, Australian and European government entities and corporations in the name of big business or the economy and such.

China should have been shunned, cut-off and ignored by the rest of the world until such time as the people force in a new and freedom loving form of government such as in Taiwan. If we had done this, perhaps we would not now be wondering whether there will war or not.

Taiwan has not left China as much as China has left Taiwan..

Wow, never thought of it this way. Give me a few days to suck it in....

mikexiao · Post by **mikexiao** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:03 am

There are so many mistakes you make.
China mainland and Taiwan island is only separated by a narrow taiwan strait.Just like north Ireland and England.People's Repulic of China or Repulic of China are both China.It's very clear.Why you guys don't understand that this is only a historical problem.Just like Hongkong and Macao.

Democratic Progressive Party of Taiwan wants Taiwan to be independence doesn't mean all the Taiwan people want that.Maybe most of them want unify.But I know now is not a proper time but eventually.

China is a ruffian?Why you guys only think from the view of Taiwan instead of people in mainland.I know most of us support our government to avoid the independence.The 1.3billion people are not idiot.They know what is right what is false.Why you never listen to them?Doesn't that mean you are not impersonal?

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:13 am

mikexiao wrote:There are so many mistakes you make.
China mainland and Taiwan island is only separated by a narrow taiwan strait.Just like north Ireland and England.People's Repulic of China or Repulic of China are both China.It's very clear.Why you guys don't understand that this is only a historical problem.Just like Hongkong and Macao.

Democratic Progressive Party of Taiwan wants Taiwan to be independence doesn't mean all the Taiwan people want that.Maybe most of them want unify.But I know now is not a proper time but eventually.

China is a ruffian?Why you guys only think from the view of Taiwan instead of people in mainland.I know most of us support our government to avoid the independence.The 1.3billion people are not idiot.They know what is right what is false.Why you never listen to them?Doesn't that mean you are not impersonal?

Pakistan and India used to be one just like Taiwan and Mainland China, but now they're different countries because of differences in politics and religious beliefs.

mikexiao · Post by **mikexiao** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:51 am

[quote="LennyeTran"]
Pakistan and India used to be one just like Taiwan and Mainland China, but now they're different countries because of differences in politics and religious beliefs.[/quote]

The reason why Pakistan and India being separateed is colonialism.Even now the relationship of these two countries are crital.There is threat of war between these two countries.I know they are not happy.They are still poor.
The policy of "one country,two system" was for Taiwan at first.The return will not change the condition of Taiwan.Indeed they will profit from commerce with main land.Acturally they are doing it now.The gain a big amount of favorable trade balance from mainland.

Danyet · Post by **Danyet** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:18 am

I'll tell you what mikexiao, if the rest of the world cut your country off economically you would soon be begging to go to Taiwan.

It is pretty plain to anyone with eyes and ears that there are many in China who disagree with the Chinese government. It is also clear to us that there are many people in China who have been "brainwashed by the machine". Perhaps you are one of those?

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:26 am

mikexiao wrote: The reason why Pakistan and India being separateed is colonialism.Even now the relationship of these two countries are crital.There is threat of war between these two countries.I know they are not happy.They are still poor.
The policy of "one country,two system" was for Taiwan at first.The return will not change the condition of Taiwan.Indeed they will profit from commerce with main land.Acturally they are doing it now.The gain a big amount of favorable trade balance from mainland.

The point is when people are separated, they don't wanna rejoin. Not many cases like Korea have happened. Why do you want intruders to join with you and mess up your system that you've been believing in? Even when North and South Korea are kinda re-joined now they still have their own systems. This is the reason why Taiwan doesn't wanna join back to China. They would lose their system if they do. It's more than just an independence as a nation; it's the freedom of what to do that they think would be taken away from them. Communists don't allow you do ~.

mikexiao · Post by **mikexiao** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:34 am

[quote="danyet"]I'll tell you what mikexiao, if the rest of the world cut your country off economically you would soon be begging to go to Taiwan.

It is pretty plain to anyone with eyes and ears that there are many in China who disagree with the Chinese government. It is also clear to us that there are many people in China who have been "brainwashed by the machine". Perhaps you are one of those?[/quote]

I know what you mean."Brainwashed by the machine" in modern China is impossible now.There are a lot of concepts changed now but the concept of Taiwan belongs to China never change.Even young people of mainland state that.I'm not old.I know our country needs to change.Acturally we are changing.And this changing is positive.People in mainland is happier than before.We don't want war.We want Taiwan return peacefully. If you don't believe this,I have to say you are brainwashed by the western media.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:39 am

mikexiao wrote: We don't want war.We want Taiwan return peacefully. If you don't believe this,I have to say you are brainwashed by the western media.

With what? A negotiation or missiles like Unknownsu stated in his posts?

mikexiao · Post by **mikexiao** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:50 am

With negotiation of course.There are missiles in taiwan too.Taiwan never says give up force to get mainland too.It's difficult to clarify.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:53 am

mikexiao wrote:With negotiation of course.There are missiles in taiwan too.Taiwan never says give up force to get mainland too.It's difficult to clarify.

Would you fight back someone you called intruders or you just sit back and let them do whatever they want? Anyway, yes, I think they should solve it with a negotation, too. And by it I mean China should step back and think about Taiwan's demands.

mikexiao · Post by **mikexiao** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:07 am

[quote="LennyeTran"]
Would you fight back someone you called intruders or you just sit back and let them do whatever they want? Anyway, yes, I think they should solve it with a negotation, too. And by it I mean China should step back and think about Taiwan's demands.[/quote]

The same question to you Would you fight back someone you called intruders or you just sit back and let them do whatever they want in your country?

So far,mainland didn't do anything that hurt Taiwan people.On the contrary,we are finding all the chance to get on well with taiwan.Do you think,the trade,cultural exchange,ect are aim to war?