A raped woman was sentenced to jail!

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A raped woman was sentenced to jail!

Post by MissLT » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:02 pm

This is wrong on so many levels!!!!

Believe me, I've been trying very hard to understand this culture, but every day it surprises me with this kinda news. I mean, she was a victim and she got sentenced to jail, plus being whipped 200 lashes? Where's the justice? Where's the right of a woman? We are NOT animals that you can whip and mold in any way you want!!! I'm so outraged! :x

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Post by =Ahmad= » Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:23 pm

First of all, I am convinced that this thread has nothing to do with a certain religion. Lenny, the thread starter, has no intention to discredit a certain religion.

Second of all, the girl was sentenced because she had broken one of Islamic Sharia law saying that “women are not allowed in public in the company of men other than their male relatives”. She was sentenced to several lashes and several months in prison NOT because she was gang raped, BUT it’s all because she had broken the Islamic Sharia law. So as the victim of the rape, she should be defended, BUT as the Islamic Sharia law breaker, she should be punished.

Third of all, the initial sentences for the men convicted of the gang rape ranged from ten months to 5 years in prison. Their new sentences range from 2 years to nine years. Or in other words, the judge doubled their sentences. And each of them DESERVES it.


How should we respond to this case?

First, whipping the guilty and putting them in prison is allowed in Islamic Sharia law. And we should respect it.

Second, there should be an appeal for this case as the verdict was too lenient for the rapist.

Thank you very much.

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Post by Dixie » Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:35 pm

=Ahmad= wrote:
First, whipping the guilty and putting them in prison is allowed in Islamic Sharia law. And we should respect it.
Sorry, but I will never respect a religion or thought that justifies violence, at any level.

Lennye, this is outragerous! :shock: They surprise me every day too. I have no words.

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Post by Hardi » Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:09 pm

It's really outrageous. Even if looking it this way, that punishment is meant to prevent crimes not for punishing. It's outrageous. Like but bank director to jail because his bank was robed.

By The Way. My dictionary say this word is outrageous not outragerous. :mrgreen:

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Post by MissLT » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:47 pm

=Ahmad= wrote:First of all, I am convinced that this thread has nothing to do with a certain religion. Lenny, the thread starter, has no intention to discredit a certain religion.
As you know their system has something to do with the religion, so it's hard to separate those two. That's why I had the intention to badmouth about certain religion when I was reading this news alone but not when I wanted to share with everyone here. What I wanted to bring up is the sexism and illogical and/or inhuman of the way they treat women.

=Ahmad= wrote:Second of all, the girl was sentenced because she had broken one of Islamic Sharia law saying that “women are not allowed in public in the company of men other than their male relatives”. She was sentenced to several lashes and several months in prison NOT because she was gang raped, BUT it’s all because she had broken the Islamic Sharia law. So as the victim of the rape, she should be defended, BUT as the Islamic Sharia law breaker, she should be punished.
What is this? :?

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia - A Saudi court sentenced a woman who had been gang raped to six months in jail and 200 lashes — more than doubling her initial penalty for being in the car of a man who was not a relative, a newspaper reported Thursday.
=Ahmad= wrote:Third of all, the initial sentences for the men convicted of the gang rape ranged from ten months to 5 years in prison. Their new sentences range from 2 years to nine years. Or in other words, the judge doubled their sentences. And each of them DESERVES it.
Why do we even bother to talk about this? I mean, if those men weren't punished, I swear to God, hell should have raised to defend this woman. :roll:

=Ahmad= wrote:How should we respond to this case?

First, whipping the guilty and putting them in prison is allowed in Islamic Sharia law. And we should respect it.
Tell me why I should? It's because it's the law and we should respect it? Back then in America African-Americans didn't get the right to vote or do anything, should we have respected this darn law then? Please, give me more logical reasons than just the respect. Respect is earned and I don't see how this law should earn mine.

:?

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Post by MissLT » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:53 pm

Dixie wrote:
=Ahmad= wrote:
First, whipping the guilty and putting them in prison is allowed in Islamic Sharia law. And we should respect it.
Sorry, but I will never respect a religion or thought that justifies violence, at any level.

Lennye, this is outragerous! :shock: They surprise me every day too. I have no words.
Exactly, Dixie. When I was trying to learn about Islam and came across the Sharia law, I winced. I was scared from the inside out. I couldn't believe that there is such thing that could manipulate and drive people to their worse nightmares.

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Post by MissLT » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:00 pm

Hardi wrote:It's really outrageous. Even if looking it this way, that punishment is meant to prevent crimes not for punishing. It's outrageous. Like but bank director to jail because his bank was robed.

By The Way. My dictionary say this word is outrageous not outragerous. :mrgreen:
I love this bold part. No wonder I love you. You always know how to say the right words. Everyone's body is supposed to be sacred, and someone is punished to jail because someone else has violated it? Where's is the justice? :x

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Post by Vega » Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:40 pm

The holy Rule of EC says: No discussion of politics or religion. ..otherwise I would reply to this topic. :?

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Post by MissLT » Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:23 pm

Talking about a woman who is being treated like an animal is politics or religion? :?

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Post by Anahita » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:09 am

such a horrible crime is not some thing any one can ignores :-s this is just the tip of the ice berg Len, many of women who are getting abused, don't dare to go to the police because of such a primitive laws, there is no justice for women.

This is so harsh but this is the truth... :-s

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Post by MissLT » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:17 am

Exactly, Anahita. One of the girls in my high school got raped, and after that she was timid all the time. She was afraid to make eye contact with people. She was scared when anyone touched her on the shoulder or arm. She was in her own little world and didn't make an effort to get out of it. This is a girl who is from a society that doesn't judge or punish her for being raped and she was acting like that. What about this woman? She is considered as bringing shame to the family. There's a tiny chance she could get married. And so on. Yet Ahmad asked me to respect this law????? If I respected it, I might as well throw away all the moral ethic codes I believe in. :roll:

That culture is built on men's superiority. Those men, or those imbecile judges, don't understand a woman's emotion of being raped unless they were raped themselves. :roll:

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Post by yali » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:21 am

[quote="Xkalibur"]The holy Rule of EC says: [b][i]No discussion of politics or religion.[/i][/b] ..otherwise I would reply to this topic. :?[/quote]

Len I like this kind of news in a simple way. But sorry Len, Xkalibur is right. I would have opened my mouth long ago, too, because I've also got plenty of it to talk about, especially when it comes to Islam. No further offense :!: :wink:

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Post by Mofo » Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:40 pm

I think that anyone who wants Sharia Law should be arrested and jailed for treason to the Human Race. Sharia Law is nothing but Satan's law. Sharia = SCUM!!

Please correct my badly English.

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Post by MissLT » Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:33 pm

yali wrote:
Xkalibur wrote:The holy Rule of EC says: No discussion of politics or religion. ..otherwise I would reply to this topic. :?
Len I like this kind of news in a simple way. But sorry Len, Xkalibur is right. I would have opened my mouth long ago, too, because I've also got plenty of it to talk about, especially when it comes to Islam. No further offense :!: :wink:
No Islam talk! Just the law itself. Please don't link it to religion or politics. I'm not interested in hearing the obviousness, anyway. Any topic about Islam will either end up of being locked or unresolved because of the same problem keeps going on, insulting and protecting. :roll:

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Post by jrkp » Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:42 pm

There's no words to justify this... It's absolutely outrageous.. :shock: :shock:
Xkalibur wrote:The holy Rule of EC says: No discussion of politics or religion. ..otherwise I would reply to this topic. :?
My friend, As I understand it, this thread isn't about politics or religion, It's about how human rights are stamped on, basing on some law which seems to be enacted in the XII century... It has to be condemned, period.

But this case underneath a bigger problem, which is, as Anahita has written, the woman's situation around the world. It's hard to say, but, Sadly, there are many, many cases like this that happen every day around the world, even in the most developed countries.
LennyTran wrote:..... This is a girl who is from a society that doesn't judge or punish her for being raped and she was acting like that. What about this woman? She is considered as bringing shame to the family. There's a tiny chance she could get married.......
Len, Despite all this madness, it's good to recover the broom's reaction, because all in all, he's been there for her and that shows that in this kind of situations, there's always someone who make us believe in mankind.... You can read his words in this link:

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast ... index.html

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Post by MissLT » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Thanks a lot for the link, jrkp. I did not know she was married. I don't agree with some of the things the husband said in the article. Nevertheless, it's one of the good news I've heard today. At least, it still gives me faith that within that society, there are people who stand up for rights of a woman such as her husband and lawyer. And I hope their king will see that she's a crushed (I like the word, very drastic and vivid) human being who did no wrong in this case, won't he??? :?

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Post by Mofo » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:44 pm

mentarget wrote:I think we should take our minds out of this discussion. It might cause us a problem. Lets concentrate on learning good things.
Yes, let us not think about the truth. Let's just pretend Sharia Law is "Good"! It is not our problem, correctly?

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Post by MissLT » Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:11 pm

mentarget wrote:I think we should take our minds out of this discussion. It might cause us a problem. Lets concentrate on learning good things.
"In Order For Evil To Triumph, Good People Do Nothing" By Siahyonkron Nyanseor

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Post by Moody » Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:53 am

I always wondered why every passing day West is going shamelessly promiscuous, vulgar, obscene, abhorrent to morality or virtue and repulsive by reason of crass disregard of moral or ethical principles. OTHER THEN RUTHLESSLY VIOLENT AND BARBARIC TO OTHER RELIGIONS AND RACES!!

-Why kids are molested in there dark churches and convents by there priests. TURNED INTO MILLIONS OF GAYS OR ETHEIST, I GUESS BETTER CHOICE FOR THEM!
- Why children are molested by there parents (mostly adopted not blood related) in your society?
- Why every second women is raped in your society? Alone in USA more than 2730 women raped every single day.
-Why teenage girl’s pregnancy is out of control in your society?
-Why kids are not properly raised by there parents and why old parents are not been taken care by there kids in your society?
-Why your society is so violent and crime rate is so high in its civic fabric?

First I was shocked, immediately after reading bible realizing that, my eyes get wet, and I prayed and thanked God and asked for his mercy and forgiveness, that he saved me from the curse of twisted lies…….AS ALL THE ACTUAL VIRTUOUS VERSIONS, ALL THAT WE MUSLIMS KNOW ARE MOSTLY NOT AWARE OF THE WAY…VULGORLY THOSE HISTORY STORIES ARE TWISTED IN THE BIBLE.

I read your bible and came to realize what kind of twisted volgur atributes you have attached to your prophets and your God. YOU HAVEN’T LEFT ANYONE, FATHER TO DAUGHER, SON TO MOTHER, GOD TO SARAH, THERE BASTERED OFF SPRINGS.

HAVE YOU LEFT ANYBODY THERE?????

AND THAT IS THE CURSE IN REALITY WHICH IS REFLECTING UPON YOUR WHOLE SOCIETY, BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!!!!!

VERY FEW EXAMPLES OUT OF THE BIBLE……..



PROPHET LOT AND HIS DAUGHTERS (YOUR BIBLE TELLS SLEEPING TOGATHER AND HAVING CHILDREN)

30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Lets get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father

PROPHETS SON SLEEPING WITH HER MOTHER YOUR BIBLE TELLS-GENESIS 35

21 Israel moved on again and pitched his tent beyond Migdal Eder. 22 While Israel was living in that region, Reuben went in and slept with his father's concubine Bilhah, and Israel heard of it.
Jacob had twelve sons:

PROPHET ABRAHAM MARRIED HER REAL SISTER ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE

11 Abraham replied, "I said to myself, 'There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.' 12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife.

THE BIRTH OF ISAAC (LORD DID FOR SARAH, WHAT HAD PROMISED) ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE IT WAS NOT ABRAHAM
Genesis 21 (New International Version)

1 Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him.


Now I clearly understand that why our Quran tells that Bible or any other divine book is not in its original form and are all tainted by the evil doers. And that why we do not believe or follow them, though we do believe in all divine books including bible revealed in their original form but do not exist. AND WE ALSO BELIEVE IN ALL THE PROPHETS INCLUDING JESUS CHRIST AND OUR QURAN REJECTS ALL KIND OF VOLGARITIES ATTRIBUTED TO THEM OR TO GOD. AND EXPLAINS AND TELL STORIES ABOUT HOW VIRTUOUS THEY WERE IN REALITY!!!!!

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Post by MissLT » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:16 am

I'm not gonna pretend that I did read all what you wrote. Anyway, the bottom line is either you stick with the topic: NO POLITICS OR RELIGION should be mentioned beside the inhuman way they've been treating this woman or save your two cents to those who are like-minded.

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Post by Hardi » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:51 am

Well if we already have gone to slippery path breaking laws by talking about Religion. Then I also would like to take a part and tell that, for me there exist only The Gospel of Tux! http://www.ao.com/~regan/penguins/tux.html
:lol:

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Post by MissLT » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:58 am

:twisted: How dare you to speak about your favorite topic while other humans' lives are in crisis! How absurd!

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Post by Moody » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:15 am

I just talked about general all across massive rap condition and womens or kids abuse in your over all society with the hint of hidden reasons SHOWING OVER ALL IMPACT ON YOU GUYS. And perfered not to discuss one rare situation due to strict law which NEUTRALIZED THE WHOLE ABUSIVE WESTERN SENARIO IN THE MUSLIM WORLD.

You can highlight the comparative results. Don't you?

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Post by MissLT » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:23 am

There is a point that you're missing. "Our society" you called doesn't whip women who are raped. Or we don't whip women who are in a car with other men. Do you see this point or do I have to spell it out for you? Women are not objects or fragile things that need protection. Why is it a crime to you because a woman is in a car with other men beside her relatives? What is wrong with it? Please help me out here! :roll:

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Post by Moody » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:52 am

Yes I can see your point with out any argument that you cannot see a fornicater men and woman get wipped rarely, BUT ITS OK WITH YOU THAT YOUR WHOLE SOCIETY INCLUDING HALF OF YOUR WOMEN GET RAPPED, MILLIONS OF CHILDEREN GET MOLESTED BY YOUR CIVILIED CULTURE AND LAWS. As I reffered in my previous posts.

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Post by MissLT » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:57 am

Tell me one country that doesn't have women get rapped or women and children are forced into slavery and prostitution. If you can find one, then I'll tell you my opinion about your statistics, which I still don't know where you've found it. And until you can give me the answer, let's stick with the point of women being whipped and put into jail because they're raped or with men who are not their relatives. Let's speak how preposterous it is, shall we?

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Post by Moody » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:12 am

Wake up, go and read your national criminal statistics, try to read a few newspapers, make it a routine daily. And try to get out of your cossy home, if you really life in California USA.

And whooo!! it is only in your mind that you think the rest of the world is THE WAY YOURS IS.

Yes crime is every where, but the above mentioned typical abuses on the national and society scale is ONLY THE BRAND OF WEST.

And you can check AGAINST ANY SOLID EVIDENCE any where in the world that it hardly exist in the Muslim world, only at minor levels.

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Post by MissLT » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:20 am

Moody wrote: - Why every second women is raped in your society? Alone in USA more than 2730 women raped every single day.
:? Where did you get it?
Moody wrote:YOUR WHOLE SOCIETY INCLUDING HALF OF YOUR WOMEN GET RAPPED, MILLIONS OF CHILDEREN GET MOLESTED BY YOUR CIVILIED CULTURE AND LAWS.
:? Again I have to ask, where did you get it?
Moody wrote:Yes crime is every where, but the above mentioned typical abuses on the national and society scale is ONLY THE BRAND OF WEST.
Really? Do you even wanna go there? Really!!??!?!?! :roll:
Moody wrote:And you can check AGAINST ANY SOLID EVIDENCE any where in the world that it hardly exist in the Muslim world, only at minor levels.
How high are you right now, may I ask?

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Post by Mofo » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:13 pm

And is Moody pretending that no crime occurs in his wretched country? Instead of fixing his own problems he instead throws stones at everyone elses house.

Hands up and be counted all you people who would volunteer to give away your freedom to choose and instead accept Sharia Law!

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Post by =Ahmad= » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:36 am

Islam forbids a woman to get together with a man ( men ) without being accompanied by her relatives. It’s all done to protect them from adultery, molestation, rape, and the like.

In the case above, the woman was sentenced because she had broken this law. AGAIN, She was sentenced NOT because she had been gang raped.

I’d like to give you an analogy.

Suppose there is a man/woman stealing some jewelry from a jewelry shop. Then the police come to the location. The police ask him/her to stop it. But s/he in fact points a gun at the police and shoots them. Then the criminal runs away. On his/her run, suddenly a car hits him/her because s/he doesn’t pay attention to the traffic. S/he gets injured and then taken to the hospital. And s/he is finally put in jail due to his/her crime.

Getting hit by a car and injured is the consequence of his/her acts. It’s not the punishment. The punishment is the imprisonment. S/he is imprisoned because s/he has broken the law.

Similiarly, getting raped was the consequence of her act to get together with men without being accompanied by her relatives. It was not the punishment. And the punishment was that she was put in jail because she had broken the law.

Thank you very much.

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Post by Hardi » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:07 am

Sounds like a law for a very dangerous country, where all men are suspicious and policemen clumsy. So instead police forces everyone by that law. to protect own family members by his self.

Well I believe in past, when these laws were invented it really was so, but.. :roll:

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Post by MissLT » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:26 am

=Ahmad= wrote:Islam forbids a woman to get together with a man ( men ) without being accompanied by her relatives. It’s all done to protect them from adultery, molestation, rape, and the like.

In the case above, the woman was sentenced because she had broken this law. AGAIN, She was sentenced NOT because she had been gang raped.
Why did they double her punishment, may I ask?
=Ahmad= wrote:I’d like to give you an analogy.

Suppose there is a man/woman stealing some jewelry from a jewelry shop. Then the police come to the location. The police ask him/her to stop it. But s/he in fact points a gun at the police and shoots them. Then the criminal runs away. On his/her run, suddenly a car hits him/her because s/he doesn’t pay attention to the traffic. S/he gets injured and then taken to the hospital. And s/he is finally put in jail due to his/her crime.

Getting hit by a car and injured is the consequence of his/her acts. It’s not the punishment. The punishment is the imprisonment. S/he is imprisoned because s/he has broken the law.
I beg your pardon? :?
=Ahmad= wrote:Similiarly, getting raped was the consequence of her act to get together with men without being accompanied by her relatives. It was not the punishment. And the punishment was that she was put in jail because she had broken the law.

Thank you very much.

So in a way you're saying that she deserved it, for she was too stupid to be in a car with men who were not her relatives????? She should have known better that she was too weak and had no brain to protect herself or be herself; that's why she, like any other women, should have needed companions when she was out on the street???? Seven men raped her!!! Seven men, we're talking about here, do you understand that number? I don't care if she broke the law (imbecile law, by the way.), it's her body someone else violated it without her wish. No matter what the situation is it is still inexcusable. :x :x :x

And last but not least, how the &%$& can you call it a law and sensible concept when you wanna whip a woman because she's with stranger men? Please enlighten me because I cannot, in my brightest moment, understand this idealogy. It's too retarded for me.

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Post by Mofo » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:32 pm

Islam forbids a woman to get together with a man ( men ) without being accompanied by her relatives. It’s all done to protect them from adultery, molestation, rape, and the like.
You should be ashamed of yourself [mod's edit]

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Let's live in harmony.

Post by =Ahmad= » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:57 am

First, the gang rape case was already settled. The brutal rapist had been punished. The panel of judge had doubled their sentences. Personally, I am not satisfied with the sentences. They should have got the heavier ones. But, that’s the verdict. If I were the girl (or her family members), I would file an appeal.

Secondly, sadly the media has blown up this case as if the girl were sentenced because she has been gang raped. It’s absolutely NOT. She was sentenced because she had broken the law for getting together with men without being accompanied by her relatives.

Thirdly, it looks odd when women/girls are prohibited to go out alone. Seems that it kills their freedom. But the practice is not that rigid. Girls/women can go anywhere as long as it’s good and safe for them. And to protect them from danger, they must be accompanied by their relatives. If they want to go to their friends’ houses or malls, it’s just fine. They can go there by walking through public places where there are a lot of people there. If they want to go by a taxi for example, they must be accompanied by their relatives. It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.

Fourthly, her sentence was doubled because she opposed the law and discredited it and provoked the media to fight against this law that’s actually good for her. It was not because she had been gang raped. And some media managed to discredit Islam and its system.

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Post by sunshine81 » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:09 am

It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.
It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!

And I also think that this kind of "rule" is pretending that every men in your country is a criminal and dangerous for a woman, doesn't it??

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Post by Oriani » Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:38 pm

sunshine81 wrote:
It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.
It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!

And I also think that this kind of "rule" is pretending that every men in your country is a criminal and dangerous for a woman, doesn't it??
I really liked this part of the conversation.. And Lenney, don't worry. Thank God we don't live under those rules, Imagine.. we would have been bad treated all the time If we do something "wrong".....

It is sad the fact that women, my genre, is such an object like that.. God...that is not good at all.. at all.. but well... things are like that. Poor woman. What can we do???

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Re: Let's live in harmony.

Post by MissLT » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:12 pm

=Ahmad= wrote: Secondly, sadly the media has blown up this case as if the girl were sentenced because she has been gang raped. It’s absolutely NOT. She was sentenced because she had broken the law for getting together with men without being accompanied by her relatives.
I think you're missing the point here. People are outraged because the judges were unfair and the punishment was idiotic. From what people see they punished a girl who just got raped because she was out with a stranger man. Then they doubled her punishment because they said she was trying to manipulate the case, which people called in other countries as freedom of speech. She, a girl who got raped, was trying to get her back her justice and that's what she's got?? This is what people see. You don't punish a girl who got raped by seven men if she didn't ask for her body and soul to be violated. Henceforth, the reason she got the punishment because she was out with a man is absolutely ridiculous.
=Ahmad= wrote: It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.
So in a way the system does them a favor, right, by protecting them from sinful men? Okay, then tell me why do you punish women who didn't want to be protected by going out on the street with men who are not their relatives? You don't do someone a favor and then punish people for not wanting your favor.
=Ahmad= wrote:Fourthly, her sentence was doubled because she opposed the law and discredited it and provoked the media to fight against this law that’s actually good for her. It was not because she had been gang raped. And some media managed to discredit Islam and its system.
:shock: I frigging beg your pardon? A law that is actually good for her? Do you even hear yourself? You don't punish a girl who get gang raped. You don't double the punishment if the girl thinks her justice is not served. And last, you don't think that preposterous law is good.

Gosh, I feel like talking to a person from the stone age. :roll:

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Post by MissLT » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:19 pm

Oriani wrote:
sunshine81 wrote:
It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.
It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!

And I also think that this kind of "rule" is pretending that every men in your country is a criminal and dangerous for a woman, doesn't it??
I really liked this part of the conversation.. And Lenney, don't worry. Thank God we don't live under those rules, Imagine.. we would have been bad treated all the time If we do something "wrong".....

It is sad the fact that women, my genre, is such an object like that.. God...that is not good at all.. at all.. but well... things are like that. Poor woman. What can we do???
Don't we all?? Women who want freedom and more rights from those countries are actually threaten to be killed. Can you imagine?

Their system is the same way elementary school ground operates. The cools, the uncools, the bullies, the weaklings, etc. It's all about rules and strength. If you're weak, you have to sit in the back and shut up. if you cooperate with the bullies, you won't get beaten up and might be protected. I feel so sick!!! :x

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Post by Oriani » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:46 pm

But why women and not men???? :evil:

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Post by Tora » Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:59 am

Oriani wrote:But why women and not men???? :evil:
I feel completely satisfied with my current appearence though...

actually I didn't want to barge into this argument as I am still convinced there is no reason saying all the same for a hundred times... This is a very wide-spread idea that it's a raped woman's fault that such a calamity has happend to her - her dress, behavior and so on, seems like the way a moman behaves waives several rules of men's behavior :roll:
In my country if a woman is walking from a concert alone at the 11 pm in a night dress it is obvious she's looking for troubles... and if something happens it would be considered as "Her fault". So stupid actually

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Post by =Ahmad= » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:23 am

sunshine81 wrote:
It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.
It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!

First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society.

Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.

Third, Islam guides women (and also men) in achieving their goals, ambitions, and ideals. Islam also guides its ummah (people) how to behave. Good goals must be achieved in good ways.

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Post by jrkp » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:02 pm

=Ahmad= wrote:.... In the case above, the woman was sentenced because she had broken this law. AGAIN, She was sentenced NOT because she had been gang raped.

.......
Ok, It's pretty clear that she wasn't sentenced by being raped, and I think all we have something to say in this thread understand that. But that isn't the point...

First at all, It's absolutely unthinkable that a human being (especially a lady) would be sentence to be whipped, not only one or two times... but 200 times!!! Forget me if I don't understand your culture, but how come someone is phsycally punished nowadays, when those kind of sentence had been put aside by many, many countries long time ago?. But that's not all, because after that, she'll spend 90 days in jail!!! :shock:.. Do you know what the sad part is? that she'll pay for that for breaking such a silly law...


My friend, as I see it, she's not only been physically punished, but also she's suffering the moral abuse of a society which privilege the role of a men within it...

=Ahmad= wrote:Islam forbids a woman to get together with a man ( men ) without being accompanied by her relatives. It’s all done to protect them from adultery, molestation, rape, and the like.
My friend, in my opinion, when something is forbidden, something inside us want to have it, despite knowing that doing so, we'll get a punishment... That's part of human nature which is beyond of believes... so said that, let me ask you something: It is not possible that the strict laws encorage these kind of crimes, instead of stop them at all?
=Ahmad= wrote:First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society...
Maybe you right, but it seems that in the reality, that statement is not fullfilled...
=Ahmad= wrote:Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.
May I ask what you understand for freedom?

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Post by Hardi » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:19 pm

=Ahmad= wrote:
sunshine81 wrote:
It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.
It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!

First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society.

Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.

Third, Islam guides women (and also men) in achieving their goals, ambitions, and ideals. Islam also guides its ummah (people) how to behave. Good goals must be achieved in good ways.
Can women be also a taxi driver? It doesn't look very effective, if taxi driver must have a guardian as extra passenger with.

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Post by Krisi » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:22 am

Xkalibur wrote:The holy Rule of EC says: No discussion of politics or religion. ..otherwise I would reply to this topic. :?
:) I've got a lot! :roll:

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Post by Krisi » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:34 am

Hardi wrote:
=Ahmad= wrote:
sunshine81 wrote: It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!

First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society.

Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.

Third, Islam guides women (and also men) in achieving their goals, ambitions, and ideals. Islam also guides its ummah (people) how to behave. Good goals must be achieved in good ways.
Can women be also a taxi driver? It doesn't look very effective, if taxi driver must have a guardian as extra passenger with.
Please reply on this Mr. Ahmad...

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Post by =Ahmad= » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:42 am

Dear JRKP,

Firstly, there are several types of punishment in this world such as (life) imprisonment, fine, house arrest, grounded, exile, and even death sentence. Whipping is just one of them.

Secondly, as far as I know (correct me If I am wrong) every law is strict. It’s the practice which is flexible. Similarly, Islamic law (system) is strict, but the practice is very flexible/ situational. For example, Islam forbids Muslims to consume pork. But if that’s the ONLY food available (I am sure that this situation is almost impossible to happen), then it’s allowed to consume it.
=Ahmad= wrote:First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society...
=JRKP= wrote:Maybe you right, but it seems that in the reality, that statement is not fullfilled...
Yes, you are right. The reality is not as beautiful as the concept. That’s why it’s every muslim’s obligation to implement the concept as well as possible so that the reality can be as beautiful as the concept.
=Ahmad= wrote:Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.
=JRKP= wrote:May I ask what you understand for freedom?
Freedom is everybody’s right. Islam gives freedom to all people in this world including women. But Islam guides it’s ummah (people) how to live on the right track.



Dear Hardi,

Your question is really interesting. Frankly speaking, it’s not easy for me to answer it. I am not an Islamic law expert. My educational background is not from Islamic studies. But I am seriously learning Islam and its concept. Anyway, I’ll try to answer it.

Firstly, Islam never burdens women to be the breadwinner. It is men’s (husbands) duty and responsibility to earn money. But if women want to earn money, it’s just fine. Why not? But, again, it’s not an obligation for them.

Secondly, most taxi drivers are men. Similarly, most construction workers, porters, traffic police officers are men. If women want to take those jobs, it’s just fine. Nothing‘s wrong about it.

Thirdly, the Islamic law (system) is very adaptable. It’s in line with the existing eras. There are a lot of issues being discussed at the moment. For example, how to determine kiblat (the direction toward Mecca to do sholat/ prayers on the moon), cloning, abortion, genetic engineering and many more. Islamic law experts collaborating with scientists have been discussing these issues and trying to solve the problems based on the Islamic point of views.

Fourthly, let’s discuss your case.
As I said before, it’s just fine for women to be a taxi driver. They can open the taxi glass windows so that people can see her, pass public areas where there are a lot of people there, or being accompanied by her relatives such as her kid, or select the passengers to take. My suggestion is if that’s the only job available and suitable with her expertise, then just take it. But if there are some other jobs out there, why not try to apply for them.

Thank you very much.

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Post by Krisi » Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:15 am

=Ahmad= wrote: As I said before, it’s just fine for women to be a taxi driver. They can open the taxi glass windows so that people can see her, pass public areas where there are a lot of people there, or being accompanied by her relatives such as her kid, or select the passengers to take. My suggestion is if that’s the only job available and suitable with her expertise, then just take it. But if there are some other jobs out there, why not try to apply for them.

Thank you very much.
My apology for supporting the question given by Hardi. I just find it interesting...
As you have stated Mr. Ahmad, you're not an Islamic Law Expert but you've explained everything clearly and highly admire all of your responses.
Thank you so much.

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Sharia is a way of life

Post by =Ahmad= » Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:52 am

Dear Mentarget,

First, Islam is inseparable with sharia law. As you said (I really appreciate your understanding about some parts of sharia law), sharia law is a system which guides muslims how to live on the right track. It’s a way of life. It’s more than a system of criminal justice which some people perceive. It covers all sectors of life such as inheritance, banking and contract law, etc.
mentarget wrote:It is also the law system inspired by the Koran, the Sunna, older Arabic law systems, parallel traditions, and work of Muslim scholars over the two first centuries of Islam.
Older Arabic law systems and parallel traditions are excluded. Currents scholars still have chance to determine some laws based on their understanding about Quran and Sunnah and their expertise. Muslim Scientists who have good understanding about genes and Islamic studies can issue a law about genetic engineering. Muslim Scientists who have good understanding about politics and Islamic studies can issue a law about political system. It’s called ijtihad (opinions from experts). But it’s up to muslims whether or not they want to follow the ijtihad. It’s different from Quran and Sunnah in which all muslims must follow them.
mentarget wrote:Sharia is the totality of religious, political, social, domestic and private life.
Yes, you are right. It’s a way of life. That’s why it must be done by all muslims all over the world. It’s an integrated system. Muslim cannot take the social and private sides only, we must take all sides so that it will run integrated and beautiful and organized. Being honest, hardworking, and kind personally is not enough. We have to encourage other muslims to do the same because sharia is not only about personal life but also a social life.
mentarget wrote:In Sunni Islam, there are four schools, madhhab, which all coexist in peace. No war has ever been fought over the issue of different schools, and students of religious subjects in most Muslim countries have to learn about all four schools. It is in many cases permissible to use a law from another school, if one feels that it is more appropriate.
Again, you are right. But we don’t have to learn all four schools. Why?

First, because it’s not only four. Some scholars say there are five or six, or seven or may be more.

Second, the schools (groups) are only ijtihad (opinions from experts). It’s up to Muslims whether or not they want to follow them. As you said above, if there is another opinion which is more appropriate, then we should take the more appropriate one.
mentarget wrote:Fiqh is the science of Sharia, and is sometimes used as synonymous with it.
Yes, you are right. Some people think that fiqh is sharia and sharia is fiqh. That’s not correct. Sharia is the concept and fiqh is the way how sharia is implemented. Sharia is strict but fiqh is situational. In other words the implementation of sharia depends mostly on the situation.

I’d like to give you an example. One of some controversial issues in sharia is about polygamy. Sharia says that it’s allowed (not recommended) for men to have more than one wife. But the fiqh (implementation) is not that simple. It depends on the situation. As you already know, even though it’s allowed but the reality is that most husbands are monogamy (have one wife only).
mentarget wrote:…meaning that new interpretations are allowed...
I am one of the muslims who agrees with this opinion. As long as the people (scholars or scientists or the like) have good understanding in Islamic studies and they are expert in their fields, I think they can interpret some laws especially if the issues have something to do with their expertise. This is called ijtihad (opinions from experts).
mentarget wrote:Sharia offers a code for living governing all elements of life, from prayers to fasting to donations to the poor. It decrees that men and women should dress modestly…
Yes, you are right. Because sharia is a way of life.


Dear Mentarget,

Sharia says that unlawful sexual intercourse (outside marriage), drinking of alcohol, theft, and highway robbery and other bad deeds are forbidden. The doers must be punished. But the punishment is situational. In some cases the doers are even pardoned.

Thank you very much.

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Post by Moody » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:11 am

THE REALITY FACT IS SECULAR WESTERNS ARE AFRAID OF SUPERIOR ISLAMIC LAWS AND SOCIAL SYSTEM COMPARE TO THEIR LAWS WHICH HAS ALREADY LOST THE MORAL AND PRINCIPLE GROUNDS AND A HOUCH POUCH OF CONFUSION AND DOUBLE STANDARDS!

Though in 49 Muslim countries Islamic Sharia is not fully implemented in any. But still where it is implemented partially in socialist or Monarchs form of Muslim govt. They are receiving the fruits and positive results.

1- Saudi Arabia one of the country which has the lowest crime rate in the world.
2- Sudan Khartoum (previous British colony) When Islamic sharia implemented according to BBC ALL kind of crime gone dramatically done more than 50% with in days in previously chaotic Sudan.

Islamic laws are strict and discouraging, result oriented. You know what you get if break the law.

That’s why Racist west don’t waste a single chance THROUGH THERE MOSTLY JEWISH MEDIA (you can link all Christian and Jewish reasons) trying to make a ridicule of RARE strict law occasions in particular Islamic countries. TO PORTRAY BAD IMAGE OF 1.6 BILLION OF PEACEFUL Muslims. With out KNOWING IN DEPTH THE REASON AND LOGIC and with out inquiring and putting the real facts in front through media, twisting and manipulating! MAKING LAME EXCUSES OF ATTACKING MUSLIM LANDS. TRYING TO JUSTIFY THERE BARBARIC ACTIONS BY BRAIN WASHING THERE PUBLIC.

Muslims who are not suffering like west in general from the following problems, which is only the BRAND OF WEST IN GENERAL DUE TO THERE LAWS & PRACTICES:

1)Every second women raped in west.
2)Adultery and fornication is now normal in West. You even don’t bother imagining your wife, husband or daughter experimenting around.
3)Teenage pregnancies are out of control. You can imagine of kids moral values and sex condition.
4)Crime rate and violence is high.
5)More people there die by suicide then HIV.
6) Children are molested and not properly raised by there parents and guardians.
7) You so extremely selfish that when your turn comes, don’t take care of your parents.
8) Unrealistic and Unjust division of RESPONSIBILITIES AND PROPERTIY among man monkey and woman monkey. (like unnatural laws about kids).
9) Unjust laws of equal RIGHTS & RESPONSIBILITY about women. Instead of Fair Laws for women. They need Fare Laws as they are not same like man in so many ways, BUT EQUAL THEY ARE. (RIGHTS CAN ONLY BE EQUAL WHEN MAN ALSO START HAVING PERIODS AND GIVING BIRTHS).
10) Intervening and unbalanced state laws about marriage. Discouraging and making marriage a state property and in reverse INCOURAGING the option of adultery and fornication in your western general society. IN Muslim society it is TOTALLY OPPOSITE. Adultery and fornication is most difficult to practice and marrying is easy to practice.
11) Your unjust family laws showing there effect on your general society.
12) Your “secular, capitalist, evolution theory” based of humans evolved from monkeys. And happy human monkey HAS NO OTHER PURPOSE IN THIS WORLD and for happiness needs only :
i)Beautiful mate for sex and to satisfy there animal instincts.
ii)Success in form of capital, good house, bank balance and property, OTHER WISE YOU ARE A LOSER.
iii) By hook or crock Power over world resources.


IS THE REAL CAUSE OF ALL BARBARICISM AT PRESENT IN THE WORLD.
Also your two faced racist laws and practices MOSTLY AGAINST Muslims in your lands. Shows your real hypocrisy and ugly two faces.

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Post by MissLT » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:41 am

Oriani wrote:But why women and not men???? :evil:
Because most women, by physical strength, are weaker than most men.

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Post by MissLT » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:46 am

Tora wrote: This is a very wide-spread idea that it's a raped woman's fault that such a calamity has happend to her - her dress, behavior and so on, seems like the way a moman behaves waives several rules of men's behavior :roll:

In my country if a woman is walking from a concert alone at the 11 pm in a night dress it is obvious she's looking for troubles... and if something happens it would be considered as "Her fault". So stupid actually
Isn't that sad? When a girl who wore a mini-skirt got raped, some people would start staying, "serve her right for wearing a mini-skirt. She was basically asking for trouble." :roll: What the heck...

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Post by MissLT » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:55 am

=Ahmad= wrote:
sunshine81 wrote:
It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.
It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!

First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society.
You're contradicting yourself. If you have certain rules set for women allowing them to do just certain things, this is not equal. Why aren't women allowed to choose whether they wanted to be on the street by themselves or not?
=Ahmad= wrote:Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.
Can you please take the word Islam out? Some of you guys don't wanna associate Islam and human rights since you guys say they don't have anything to do with Islam. Now you wanted to link them together? And when we talk about Islam, you guys will start saying oh remember the rule, no politics and religion.
Last edited by MissLT on Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by MissLT » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:59 am

=Ahmad= wrote: Fourthly, let’s discuss your case.
As I said before, it’s just fine for women to be a taxi driver. They can open the taxi glass windows so that people can see her, pass public areas where there are a lot of people there, or being accompanied by her relatives such as her kid, or select the passengers to take. My suggestion is if that’s the only job available and suitable with her expertise, then just take it. But if there are some other jobs out there, why not try to apply for them.

Thank you very much.
Excuse me, how can they be a taxi driver when they are not even allowed to drive in some Muslim countries? Who are you fooling here with this kinda explanation? :roll:

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Post by MissLT » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:07 am

Moody wrote:THE REALITY FACT IS SECULAR WESTERNS ARE AFRAID OF SUPERIOR ISLAMIC LAWS AND SOCIAL SYSTEM COMPARE TO THEIR LAWS WHICH HAS ALREADY LOST THE MORAL AND PRINCIPLE GROUNDS AND A HOUCH POUCH OF CONFUSION AND DOUBLE STANDARDS!
Okay enough said here. I don't think we need to argue more. Let the words speak for themselves and for people to judge. :roll:

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Post by Moody » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:55 am

mentarget wrote:Moody, you went too far by using what is writing in the Holy Bible as your points.
Would you like to elaborate what is holy about the verses I quoted from your bible?

By the way what does Christianity means "Begotten son"?
And what about other incorrect and proven wrong information.

Are they all PROOF of present Bible Divinity?
And also the PROOF, that it is not fabricated?

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Post by Oriani » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:37 pm

Moody wrote:
mentarget wrote:Moody, you went too far by using what is writing in the Holy Bible as your points.
Would you like to elaborate what is holy about the verses I quoted from your bible?

By the way what does Christianity means "Begotten son"?
And what about other incorrect and proven wrong information.

Are they all PROOF of present Bible Divinity?
And also the PROOF, that it is not fabricated?
:?

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Post by Oriani » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:38 pm

I don't know why we can't talk about these topics without arguing too much...

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Post by Krisi » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:43 pm

I think this discussion is too much now. Matters not related to the actual topic is being raised to a point. There is no more respect in each ones belief. :( (It's as if there's one here who's perfect. Which is so unrealistic already...)
A lot has been said about the practices and rules of Islam religion and it is now leading to confussion. Even the real experts are keeping themselves quiet by not linking up unrelated topics on certain matters to avoid misunderstandings and confussion, I supposed. Why can't you?
I think showing off too much is not good (as in comparing one from the other). Keep a little for the rest to judge because the flaws will be very obvious later on if you go further into it. Otherwise, imperfections will eventually come out by itself. (Someone's actually spilling out the beans here. :P )
I could almost peek (from this discussion) that the rigidity of such religion shows that the women are almost treated like animals and not as humane beings. Have pity!
(Gosh! and even this news about that lady is being used to hitch up new faucet for discussion about the religion... let it rest!)

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Post by MissLT » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:06 pm

You're hitting the nail on the head there, krisi. Well said.

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Post by Krisi » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:10 pm

LennyeTran wrote:You're hitting the nail on the head there, krisi. Well said.
Thanks Lenne, I'm grateful you got what I mean.
Honestly, I don't know much about Islam but because of this, I have learned and have seen (:shock:) a lot! (good and evil) :shock: .... I don't want to know more than these! Horrible!
Talks about that woman should rest really. I noticed she's being used to the maximum. Is this how women are being treated there? Is this what they call respect? Even this news, the fact that she's a woman is being hauled to nowhere (by her "co-believer" in religion.). Where's the respect here? (Whether she's deserving of such respect or not she should be respected because she's humane! or is it really only for men?)
Now, this is a part of what I've seen from this discussion if they'll add more for sure I'll see more...:twisted:

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Post by jrkp » Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:43 am

=Ahmad= wrote:Dear JRKP,

Firstly, there are several types of punishment in this world such as (life) imprisonment, fine, house arrest, grounded, exile, and even death sentence. Whipping is just one of them.
........
Dear Ahmad, You can't compare the kind of punishments you mentioned... None of them imply suffering, and that's the whole point here... it's not the same to be at home without going anywhere than be whipped 200 times...
=Ahmad= wrote:......

Secondly, as far as I know (correct me If I am wrong) every law is strict. It’s the practice which is flexible. Similarly, Islamic law (system) is strict, but the practice is very flexible/ situational. For example, Islam forbids Muslims to consume pork. But if that’s the ONLY food available (I am sure that this situation is almost impossible to happen), then it’s allowed to consume it.
Well Ahmad, to me, not every law is strict. Every law is supposed to be FAIR... Believe it or not, there is a subtle difference... For example, if someone kills in self-defense, I think he shouldn't get the same sentence than someone who kill in cold blood.
=Ahmad= wrote:.....

Secondly, as far as I know (correct me If I am wrong) every law is strict. It’s the practice which is flexible. Similarly, Islamic law (system) is strict, but the practice is very flexible/ situational. For example, Islam forbids Muslims to consume pork. But if that’s the ONLY food available (I am sure that this situation is almost impossible to happen), then it’s allowed to consume it.
I couldn't say it better!!! Let's see.. Here's a women who was raped by 7 men. Then she was sentence to spend 90 says in prison and be whipped 200 times for break a law.

I wonder.. Where is the flexibility here? I mean, It isn't punishment enough be raped?. That's the whole discussion about, the lack of flexibilty of the judiciary system in middle east countries.

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The sharia'a law is not satanic.

Post by =Ahmad= » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:44 am

Dear JRKP.

Firstly, I completely agree that killing for self-defense is different from killing people in cold-blooded ways.

Secondly, there are hundreds of punishments run every single day in Muslim countries from fine to imprisonment to death sentences. But this is rarely publicized since these kinds of punishments are also implemented in secular countries.

When whippings and cutting off hands (which are rarely done compared to other kinds of punishments) are implemented then some media expose them as if they are the only punishments in Islam. To be honest, I am learning these kinds of punishments, especially the psychological and social impacts. Next time, after I can grasp the concept, the implementation and positive sides well, I’ll share it with you.

Thirdly, I am not intending to show off Islam. I am just trying to clarify misunderstandings about Islam. The criminal law is only a small part in Sharia’a law. There are other concepts which are good to be implemented even in secular countries.

One of them is the sharia’a law on banking system. There have been a lot of scholars (not only Muslims) researching this concept. Some of them give positive appreciation on this concept.

The result is the establishment of Islamic banks in some secular countries. The UK is one of them. An Islamic bank (The Islamic Bank of Britain) has been set up in the UK.

The establishment of Islamic banks in secular countries is not only intending to accommodate Muslims’ aspirations but also because this kind of bank is considered a good alternative.

The customers of Islamic banks are not only Muslims but also non-Muslims. Why are there a lot of non-Muslim customers in Islamic banks?

First, the board of management is reliable because they have been recognized as honest people in its society. Besides, they are also professionals who know what they are doing.

Second, Islamic banks are considered safer and more impartial. The chances of fraud and money laundry to happen are very very small. It’s not only because the management are honest people but also because the system never tolerates cheating and injustice.


Dear Mofo.
Hope this would be useful. The sharia’a law is not satanic.

Thank you very much.

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Post by Moody » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:24 am

You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have..
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THAT EVERY RATIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!

MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)

Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT ITS FROM SOMEONE WHO IS COMMUNICATING TO A HUMAN AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)

- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.


Verses about:

1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female atributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animals behaviour and how they communicate.

AND MANY MORE............

THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.

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Post by zaman » Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:14 pm

I am a Muslim and I like the Islamic religious, but he should know that my brother Ahmed any person who has not judged by God and His Messenger for prayer and the peace outside the denominations. This way they distorted Islam reduction in ornamental clear, but did not hear the name of Islam by a legitimate privacy of others. I attacked and loved, but in a religious ruling that happened to these girls as the existing front of the novel is unfair and unjust

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Post by Moody » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:09 am

BRINGING PROOF FROM YOUR OWN BIBLE BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN IT SO YOU NEED IT TO VARIFY, AS MUSLIMS PROOF AND WHAT WE BELIEVE IS QURAN.

Lies or Truth: Evidence speaks for it self !

1- There is not a single verse in ANY VERSION of Bible where Jesus (A.S) said, worship me OR I'm god. Instead he said,” I speak what I hear from father”, “My Father is greater than me."

2- Again word "Trinity" is not mentioned in ANY VERSION of the Bible. The closest verse to trinity that,” Father, Holy Ghost & spirit is one" is thrown out in your REVISED VERSION of Bible. As all your high priests said,” It was a concoction, fabrication, addition, a lie in the Bible, as no such verse is found in the most ancient scriptures".
So please ask your own priests who is lying and fabricating??????

3-We Muslims FOLLOW more in Jesus (A.S) commandments then you Christians:

(You say, you love Jesus (A.S.), but you disobey his every commandment).

4-From Adam to Jesus (PBUT) MENTIONED IN YOUR BIBLE, all prophets when prayed to God, they prostrated like we Muslims.
Do you follow Jesus, how to pray?

5- In ALL Bibles more than 3 times Jesus said swine-pig is forbidden to eat. We Muslims follow him, but you Christians follow PAUL and disobey Jesus (A.S.) commandments.

6- More than 4 occasions in ALL Bibles Jesus (A.S) told wine has bad attributes on the humans. But Paul quotes the "FIRST MIRACLE OF JESUS" and since then wine is flowing like water in Christendom and NOT AT ALL in Muslimdom. (Bible said water tasted like wine and never said turned into wine).

7- Jesus said," I came to keep all the commandments of the God and not to break them". But you Christians broke EACH AND EVERY of them.
Hale-aluu-Yaa to Church, Paul, Mathew, John and Luke!!!!!

8-According to Christian Bible first miracle of Jesus (A.S.) was turning water taste like wine and recovering the shortage in the gathering. But according to Quran the first miracle of Jesus was talking to Jews when he was infant in his mother’s arms.

When after birth, Mary came:
According to the BIBLE she told the Jews that she hear voices and then had a child birth. Do you believe your daughter or sister, if she come and tell you she had birth after hearing voices? Do you think when “IF” Mary had told that to the Jews, they would have believed her???
But Quran tells that the Jews accused her, she knows that Jesus (A.S) was the miraculous birth. So she told the Jews ask the infant. And miraculously Jesus (A.S) talked to them and told them that I'm the messenger from God, so be nice and respectful to my mother as she is among the highest of the pious. Quran gives highest respect to Mary, even there is a complete chapter by her name in Quran. You have chapters named by Mathew, Luke, John or lying Paul and many others but not a single by his mothers name Mary.
Which version would you like to tell to your children, HEARING VOICES AND GETTING PRAGNANT or MIRACULOUS TALK????


9-Christians says Jesus (A.S) was the BEGOTTEN SON. What are you trying to apply here? So what you are trying to put in all the humans throat is that the All Mighty God Who made every thing miraculously from Adam to every thing of this world needs to come done to seed…. (God forgive us for such satanic thinking). Allah tells in Quran that when He wants to do some thing, He just says and it happens. He begets not nor He begotten and no one is like Him. Human miracles are not the proof of any kind of divinity. Jesus (A.S) was the prophet like all other prophets with miracles.

10-Christians says Jesus (A.S) get crucified for there sins. And a son of god (not mentioned any where in the Bible, he himself never said that). And dozens of Bible verses proving that he was not died through crucifixion. You Christians are also divided about it.
So basically what you are making to swallow us (the whole human race) is that the whole nation rape, kill and do bad atrocities and when brought for justice, there King hang his own son instead of punishing them. IT DOES REALLY MAKE PERFECT SENSE! Hale- alu- Yaa PAUL and the greatest deceiving of the human history.

11- Jesus says “ He is jealous God only pray to Him”. But Christians are eager to make partner to Him. We Muslims only pray to God and don’t make any partners to Him.

So I am asking you a question:

Next time does Jesus (A.S) come to the house of people who are obeying his commandments OR who are TOTALLY disobeying his commandments???

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Post by Mofo » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:39 pm

I wonder what kind a whip they use. Do you know that people can die from less wipping?

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Post by Tora » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:56 pm

Mofo wrote:I wonder what kind a whip they use. Do you know that people can die from less wipping?
Never have been interested... Any corporal punishment is outrageous, we are not in medieval times any more

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Post by Vega » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:02 am

Mofo wrote:I wonder what kind a whip they use. Do you know that people can die from less wipping?
What if they use a chain whip maid of a steel? BTW, why can one die from less whipping? :roll: :?

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Whippings are not done in sadistic ways.

Post by =Ahmad= » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:34 am

Tora wrote:
Mofo wrote:I wonder what kind a whip they use. Do you know that people can die from less wipping?
Never have been interested... Any corporal punishment is outrageous, we are not in medieval times any more

Whippings are not done in sadistic ways.

Whippings are usually conducted after the Friday prayers at a masjid front yard. Before the punishment is done, the wrong doer is treated very well. After the Friday prayers, the wrong doer is taken to the masjid front yard, and without a lot of ceremonies, the punishment is then conducted as quickly as possible.

After the punishment is conducted, then the person is taken to the hospital and treated well by a medical team.

The punishment is done as well as possible. It’s only the executor’s right hand swinging, NOT his left hand or other body parts. So, one lash after another over the wrong doer is not as strong as a ball from the pitcher in a basketball game which gets additional power from the swinging of left hand, legs and other body parts.

The whip is made of a rattan stick so that the whippings won’t get the acceleration power due to flexible movements. In other words, the power of the executioners is not full.

Don’t imagine that the whipping is just like presented by The Passion of the Christ movie. The Roman people went too far. They did the whipping as hard as they can with flexible tools as well as sharp edged tools. That was really sadistic and unacceptable.

USUALLY, in the evening, a news reader reads the news about the whipping. The announcement is done wisely. The news reader reads the news in a soft intonation without any commercial breaks. In other words, the wrong doer is punished but s/he is not treated as the garbage of society.

And the most important thing is that before the punishment conducted, the health condition of the wrong doer is examined first to make sure whether or not s/he is ready for the punishment.

Thank you very much.

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Post by Hardi » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:47 pm

So wiping to them is often more as humiliation or shame than physical violence..? It's seems good law for non Muslim foreigners. When violating law and they allow you to chose get wiped or going to jail. Seems that get wiped is better...

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Post by Mofo » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:29 pm

Ah! I see. It is a retan cane like in Singapore. I have been beat with these sticks......they do not hurt so bad.

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Re: Whippings are not done in sadistic ways.

Post by Tora » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:26 pm

=Ahmad= wrote:
Tora wrote:
Mofo wrote:I wonder what kind a whip they use. Do you know that people can die from less wipping?
Never have been interested... Any corporal punishment is outrageous, we are not in medieval times any more

Whippings are not done in sadistic ways.

Before the punishment is done, the wrong doer is treated very well...

After the punishment is conducted, then the person is taken to the hospital and treated well by a medical team...

The punishment is done as well as possible. It’s only the executor’s right hand swinging, NOT his left hand or other body parts. So, one lash after another over the wrong doer is not as strong as a ball from the pitcher in a basketball game which gets additional power from the swinging of left hand, legs and other body parts.

In other words, the power of the executioners is not full...

And the most important thing is that before the punishment conducted, the health condition of the wrong doer is examined first to make sure whether or not s/he is ready for the punishment.
Thank you for such a full description of punishment details, but it still seems for an European person as not proper measure towards humans. And this time persuading that it is very human and the "wrong doer" gets a qualified medical treatment before and after the execution is done... oh please, as I believe old good prison bars are much more efficient this way.
You guys are enought hurried to sentence an elderly woman to whipping if she let her pupils name a teddy bear by the name of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named in case to follow forum rules...

I'm that stubborn to see a good point in whipping :roll:

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Re: Whippings are not done in sadistic ways.

Post by MissLT » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:01 pm

Tora wrote: You guys are enought hurried to sentence an elderly woman to whipping if she let her pupils name a teddy bear by the name of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named in case to follow forum rules...

I'm that stubborn to see a good point in whipping :roll:
:lol: I know it's not the moment but gosh, this is hilarious.

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Re: Whippings are not done in sadistic ways.

Post by Oriani » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:20 pm

LennyeTran wrote:
Tora wrote: You guys are enought hurried to sentence an elderly woman to whipping if she let her pupils name a teddy bear by the name of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named in case to follow forum rules...

I'm that stubborn to see a good point in whipping :roll:
:lol: I know it's not the moment but gosh, this is hilarious.
I read this morning about the "Teddy bear" and I was absolutely shocked about that :? How come those things can happen???

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Re: Whippings are not done in sadistic ways.

Post by Krisi » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:03 am

Oriani wrote:
LennyeTran wrote:
Tora wrote: You guys are enought hurried to sentence an elderly woman to whipping if she let her pupils name a teddy bear by the name of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named in case to follow forum rules...

I'm that stubborn to see a good point in whipping :roll:
:lol: I know it's not the moment but gosh, this is hilarious.
I read this morning about the "Teddy bear" and I was absolutely shocked about that :? How come those things can happen???
How about the boy who named the teddy...what happen to him? Was he castigated? (Oh my, I think we're all children here, huh! Now I'm thinking, (I'm so sorry to ask this.), who's the real judge?)

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Post by Krisi » Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:14 am

I'm very sorry to say this BUT,

Some people here just don't know what they are doing. Or they are overpowered by evil...
This is not a place to convert someone's belief...So don't be offended if you don't get favorable results...Your belief is yours don't imposed it on others...if you want to, this is not the right place! If you have even a little respect on your own RELIGION why did you haul it here on the first place? (I think you know this is not the right place...) If you still have that respect on your own religion, you've got to stop before you would be completely misunderstood.

I have followed this thread and have read how YOU PEOPLE INSULTED OTHERS, how you tried to draw other people to share their own religious belief but you're alone here talking about your religion didn't you notice that?

If you just followed the EC rules it won't lead to this...

Thank you.

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A British female teacher in Sudan

Post by =Ahmad= » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:42 am

krisi wrote:
Oriani wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: :lol: I know it's not the moment but gosh, this is hilarious.
I read this morning about the "Teddy bear" and I was absolutely shocked about that :? How come those things can happen???
How about the boy who named the teddy...what happen to him? Was he castigated? (Oh my, I think we're all children here, huh! Now I'm thinking, (I'm so sorry to ask this.), who's the real judge?)
A British female teacher in Sudan

First of all, I’d like to express my appreciation to the teacher who was willing to teach in Sudan. I am sure it would be nicer to teach in the UK than in Sudan. If she teaches in the UK, she gets better incomes, facilities and environments. It’s very touching to know her willingness to teach in Sudan.

Secondly, some Muslim scholars agree with the Sudanese government’s decision to have punished the teacher while some others disagree.

Thirdly, personally I agree with the scholars who disagree with the Sudanese government’s decision.

Fourthly, but I can understand the decision.


WHY?

First, Islam forbids people to humiliate Prophet Muhammad. Whoever does it, Muslims or non-Muslims, must be punished. That’s the basic principle.

Second, she shouldn’t have been punished. She didn’t know about the principle. A person can not be punished for what s/he does not know. In the UK, one of the UK Muslim figures says that there might be no problem for kids to name their teddy bears Muhammad because bears are not considered bad/ disgusting animals. In fact, Bears are considered cool and cute animals.

Third, but Sudanese people consider bears are not cool animals. They are fierce and cruel animals. Naming teddy bears Muhammad is a BIG humiliation as Prophet Muhammad was not a fierce and cruel figure.

Fourth, so the problem, of course, has something to do with the culture. In culture point of view, Sudanese people consider bears NOT cool animals.

Fifth, the perceptions about animals are different from one area/ society to another. Dogs for example, some consider them cool animals. Dogs can be humans’ best friends. However, they are disgusting animals for some others.

Another example is pigs. These animals are cool for some people. There are lots of doll of pigs in the market. The designs are very good. The colors, pink for example (which symbolizes love), are beautiful. Some kids use these dolls to accompany them in sleeping. But for some others, pigs are considered disgusting animals (probably due to their mouths and noses or the way they eat or other things).

Another example is monkeys. For some, it’s okay to say monkey, but not for some others. When you call somebody a monkey, it means you are challenging him/her for a fight. Calling somebody a monkey is a big humiliation for some people/ society. Somebody can fight until death to defense his/her dignity. Calling somebody a monkey is touching his/her dignity.

In some parts of India, don’t ever hurt cows. Don’t eat the meat. You could be dead. You could be killed. Cows are sacred animals for some of them. I personally like the meat though. It’s delicious. Really.

So, the point is: different fond, different fish; different area/ society, different culture.

Sixth, I read an article at EnglishClub.com/ TEFL.net saying that teachers should learn the culture of the area where s/he is going to teach.

“… Whether you are teaching in your own country or abroad, it is your job as an ESL teacher to familiarize yourself with cultural taboos. This includes topics that may be considered inappropriate…”
http://www.tefl.net/teacher-tips/teacher-taboos.htm

In my opinion, by understanding the local culture, it would be easier for teachers to explain the lessons, and they themselves would be more accepted by the local people.

Seventh, I don’t blame the British teacher who did not understand the culture about animals in Sudan. She was willing to teach in Sudan is really touching to me. But I really agree with EnglishClub.com/ IELF.net saying that teachers should learn the local culture where they are going to teach.

Eighth, this suggestion also applies not only for teachers but also for other professions. We should learn the culture of the place where we are going to work. A company prefers hiring candidates who know its company’s culture.

Ninth, I really respect the Sudanese government’s decision to have punished the teacher and finally reduced the imprisonment period of time.

Tenth, I really appreciate the British teacher who has given a good explanation to the media, especially to The BBC, that during the punishment she had been treated very well.

So, here is the logic: bears are not considered cool animals in Sudan. They are even considered fierce and cruel. And Prophet Muhammad was not fierce and cruel. And naming teddy bears Muhammad means humiliating Prophet Muhammad. And whoever humiliates Muhammad must be punished.

And finally, I personally agree with some Muslim scholars who disagree with the Sudanese government’s decision, but I can also understand the decision.

Thank you very much.

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Post by Krisi » Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:13 am

Very well said Ahmad. (You're sensible! more realistic!) Thanks.









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