A raped woman was sentenced to jail!

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Hardi
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Postby Hardi » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:19 pm

=Ahmad= wrote:
sunshine81 wrote:
It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.


It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!



First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society.

Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.

Third, Islam guides women (and also men) in achieving their goals, ambitions, and ideals. Islam also guides its ummah (people) how to behave. Good goals must be achieved in good ways.
Can women be also a taxi driver? It doesn't look very effective, if taxi driver must have a guardian as extra passenger with.

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Postby Krisi » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:22 am

Xkalibur wrote:The holy Rule of EC says: No discussion of politics or religion. ..otherwise I would reply to this topic. :?


:) I've got a lot! :roll:

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Postby Krisi » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:34 am

Hardi wrote:
=Ahmad= wrote:
sunshine81 wrote:
It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.


It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!



First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society.

Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.

Third, Islam guides women (and also men) in achieving their goals, ambitions, and ideals. Islam also guides its ummah (people) how to behave. Good goals must be achieved in good ways.
Can women be also a taxi driver? It doesn't look very effective, if taxi driver must have a guardian as extra passenger with.


Please reply on this Mr. Ahmad...

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Postby =Ahmad= » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:42 am

Dear JRKP,

Firstly, there are several types of punishment in this world such as (life) imprisonment, fine, house arrest, grounded, exile, and even death sentence. Whipping is just one of them.

Secondly, as far as I know (correct me If I am wrong) every law is strict. It’s the practice which is flexible. Similarly, Islamic law (system) is strict, but the practice is very flexible/ situational. For example, Islam forbids Muslims to consume pork. But if that’s the ONLY food available (I am sure that this situation is almost impossible to happen), then it’s allowed to consume it.

=Ahmad= wrote:First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society...


=JRKP= wrote:Maybe you right, but it seems that in the reality, that statement is not fullfilled...


Yes, you are right. The reality is not as beautiful as the concept. That’s why it’s every muslim’s obligation to implement the concept as well as possible so that the reality can be as beautiful as the concept.

=Ahmad= wrote:Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.


=JRKP= wrote:May I ask what you understand for freedom?


Freedom is everybody’s right. Islam gives freedom to all people in this world including women. But Islam guides it’s ummah (people) how to live on the right track.



Dear Hardi,

Your question is really interesting. Frankly speaking, it’s not easy for me to answer it. I am not an Islamic law expert. My educational background is not from Islamic studies. But I am seriously learning Islam and its concept. Anyway, I’ll try to answer it.

Firstly, Islam never burdens women to be the breadwinner. It is men’s (husbands) duty and responsibility to earn money. But if women want to earn money, it’s just fine. Why not? But, again, it’s not an obligation for them.

Secondly, most taxi drivers are men. Similarly, most construction workers, porters, traffic police officers are men. If women want to take those jobs, it’s just fine. Nothing‘s wrong about it.

Thirdly, the Islamic law (system) is very adaptable. It’s in line with the existing eras. There are a lot of issues being discussed at the moment. For example, how to determine kiblat (the direction toward Mecca to do sholat/ prayers on the moon), cloning, abortion, genetic engineering and many more. Islamic law experts collaborating with scientists have been discussing these issues and trying to solve the problems based on the Islamic point of views.

Fourthly, let’s discuss your case.
As I said before, it’s just fine for women to be a taxi driver. They can open the taxi glass windows so that people can see her, pass public areas where there are a lot of people there, or being accompanied by her relatives such as her kid, or select the passengers to take. My suggestion is if that’s the only job available and suitable with her expertise, then just take it. But if there are some other jobs out there, why not try to apply for them.

Thank you very much.

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Postby Krisi » Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:15 am

=Ahmad= wrote:As I said before, it’s just fine for women to be a taxi driver. They can open the taxi glass windows so that people can see her, pass public areas where there are a lot of people there, or being accompanied by her relatives such as her kid, or select the passengers to take. My suggestion is if that’s the only job available and suitable with her expertise, then just take it. But if there are some other jobs out there, why not try to apply for them.

Thank you very much.


My apology for supporting the question given by Hardi. I just find it interesting...
As you have stated Mr. Ahmad, you're not an Islamic Law Expert but you've explained everything clearly and highly admire all of your responses.
Thank you so much.

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Sharia is a way of life

Postby =Ahmad= » Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:52 am

Dear Mentarget,

First, Islam is inseparable with sharia law. As you said (I really appreciate your understanding about some parts of sharia law), sharia law is a system which guides muslims how to live on the right track. It’s a way of life. It’s more than a system of criminal justice which some people perceive. It covers all sectors of life such as inheritance, banking and contract law, etc.

mentarget wrote:It is also the law system inspired by the Koran, the Sunna, older Arabic law systems, parallel traditions, and work of Muslim scholars over the two first centuries of Islam.


Older Arabic law systems and parallel traditions are excluded. Currents scholars still have chance to determine some laws based on their understanding about Quran and Sunnah and their expertise. Muslim Scientists who have good understanding about genes and Islamic studies can issue a law about genetic engineering. Muslim Scientists who have good understanding about politics and Islamic studies can issue a law about political system. It’s called ijtihad (opinions from experts). But it’s up to muslims whether or not they want to follow the ijtihad. It’s different from Quran and Sunnah in which all muslims must follow them.

mentarget wrote:Sharia is the totality of religious, political, social, domestic and private life.


Yes, you are right. It’s a way of life. That’s why it must be done by all muslims all over the world. It’s an integrated system. Muslim cannot take the social and private sides only, we must take all sides so that it will run integrated and beautiful and organized. Being honest, hardworking, and kind personally is not enough. We have to encourage other muslims to do the same because sharia is not only about personal life but also a social life.

mentarget wrote:In Sunni Islam, there are four schools, madhhab, which all coexist in peace. No war has ever been fought over the issue of different schools, and students of religious subjects in most Muslim countries have to learn about all four schools. It is in many cases permissible to use a law from another school, if one feels that it is more appropriate.


Again, you are right. But we don’t have to learn all four schools. Why?

First, because it’s not only four. Some scholars say there are five or six, or seven or may be more.

Second, the schools (groups) are only ijtihad (opinions from experts). It’s up to Muslims whether or not they want to follow them. As you said above, if there is another opinion which is more appropriate, then we should take the more appropriate one.

mentarget wrote:Fiqh is the science of Sharia, and is sometimes used as synonymous with it.


Yes, you are right. Some people think that fiqh is sharia and sharia is fiqh. That’s not correct. Sharia is the concept and fiqh is the way how sharia is implemented. Sharia is strict but fiqh is situational. In other words the implementation of sharia depends mostly on the situation.

I’d like to give you an example. One of some controversial issues in sharia is about polygamy. Sharia says that it’s allowed (not recommended) for men to have more than one wife. But the fiqh (implementation) is not that simple. It depends on the situation. As you already know, even though it’s allowed but the reality is that most husbands are monogamy (have one wife only).

mentarget wrote:…meaning that new interpretations are allowed...


I am one of the muslims who agrees with this opinion. As long as the people (scholars or scientists or the like) have good understanding in Islamic studies and they are expert in their fields, I think they can interpret some laws especially if the issues have something to do with their expertise. This is called ijtihad (opinions from experts).

mentarget wrote:Sharia offers a code for living governing all elements of life, from prayers to fasting to donations to the poor. It decrees that men and women should dress modestly…


Yes, you are right. Because sharia is a way of life.


Dear Mentarget,

Sharia says that unlawful sexual intercourse (outside marriage), drinking of alcohol, theft, and highway robbery and other bad deeds are forbidden. The doers must be punished. But the punishment is situational. In some cases the doers are even pardoned.

Thank you very much.

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Postby Moody » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:11 am

THE REALITY FACT IS SECULAR WESTERNS ARE AFRAID OF SUPERIOR ISLAMIC LAWS AND SOCIAL SYSTEM COMPARE TO THEIR LAWS WHICH HAS ALREADY LOST THE MORAL AND PRINCIPLE GROUNDS AND A HOUCH POUCH OF CONFUSION AND DOUBLE STANDARDS!

Though in 49 Muslim countries Islamic Sharia is not fully implemented in any. But still where it is implemented partially in socialist or Monarchs form of Muslim govt. They are receiving the fruits and positive results.

1- Saudi Arabia one of the country which has the lowest crime rate in the world.
2- Sudan Khartoum (previous British colony) When Islamic sharia implemented according to BBC ALL kind of crime gone dramatically done more than 50% with in days in previously chaotic Sudan.

Islamic laws are strict and discouraging, result oriented. You know what you get if break the law.

That’s why Racist west don’t waste a single chance THROUGH THERE MOSTLY JEWISH MEDIA (you can link all Christian and Jewish reasons) trying to make a ridicule of RARE strict law occasions in particular Islamic countries. TO PORTRAY BAD IMAGE OF 1.6 BILLION OF PEACEFUL Muslims. With out KNOWING IN DEPTH THE REASON AND LOGIC and with out inquiring and putting the real facts in front through media, twisting and manipulating! MAKING LAME EXCUSES OF ATTACKING MUSLIM LANDS. TRYING TO JUSTIFY THERE BARBARIC ACTIONS BY BRAIN WASHING THERE PUBLIC.

Muslims who are not suffering like west in general from the following problems, which is only the BRAND OF WEST IN GENERAL DUE TO THERE LAWS & PRACTICES:

1)Every second women raped in west.
2)Adultery and fornication is now normal in West. You even don’t bother imagining your wife, husband or daughter experimenting around.
3)Teenage pregnancies are out of control. You can imagine of kids moral values and sex condition.
4)Crime rate and violence is high.
5)More people there die by suicide then HIV.
6) Children are molested and not properly raised by there parents and guardians.
7) You so extremely selfish that when your turn comes, don’t take care of your parents.
8) Unrealistic and Unjust division of RESPONSIBILITIES AND PROPERTIY among man monkey and woman monkey. (like unnatural laws about kids).
9) Unjust laws of equal RIGHTS & RESPONSIBILITY about women. Instead of Fair Laws for women. They need Fare Laws as they are not same like man in so many ways, BUT EQUAL THEY ARE. (RIGHTS CAN ONLY BE EQUAL WHEN MAN ALSO START HAVING PERIODS AND GIVING BIRTHS).
10) Intervening and unbalanced state laws about marriage. Discouraging and making marriage a state property and in reverse INCOURAGING the option of adultery and fornication in your western general society. IN Muslim society it is TOTALLY OPPOSITE. Adultery and fornication is most difficult to practice and marrying is easy to practice.
11) Your unjust family laws showing there effect on your general society.
12) Your “secular, capitalist, evolution theory” based of humans evolved from monkeys. And happy human monkey HAS NO OTHER PURPOSE IN THIS WORLD and for happiness needs only :
i)Beautiful mate for sex and to satisfy there animal instincts.
ii)Success in form of capital, good house, bank balance and property, OTHER WISE YOU ARE A LOSER.
iii) By hook or crock Power over world resources.


IS THE REAL CAUSE OF ALL BARBARICISM AT PRESENT IN THE WORLD.
Also your two faced racist laws and practices MOSTLY AGAINST Muslims in your lands. Shows your real hypocrisy and ugly two faces.

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Postby MissLT » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:41 am

Oriani wrote:But why women and not men???? :evil:

Because most women, by physical strength, are weaker than most men.

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Postby MissLT » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:46 am

Tora wrote: This is a very wide-spread idea that it's a raped woman's fault that such a calamity has happend to her - her dress, behavior and so on, seems like the way a moman behaves waives several rules of men's behavior :roll:

In my country if a woman is walking from a concert alone at the 11 pm in a night dress it is obvious she's looking for troubles... and if something happens it would be considered as "Her fault". So stupid actually

Isn't that sad? When a girl who wore a mini-skirt got raped, some people would start staying, "serve her right for wearing a mini-skirt. She was basically asking for trouble." :roll: What the heck...

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Postby MissLT » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:55 am

=Ahmad= wrote:
sunshine81 wrote:
It’s all for their own good. It has nothing to do with limiting their freedom.


It is limiting their freedom! That's for sure!



First, Islam clearly states that men and women are equal. Islam never considers women the second class in society.

You're contradicting yourself. If you have certain rules set for women allowing them to do just certain things, this is not equal. Why aren't women allowed to choose whether they wanted to be on the street by themselves or not?

=Ahmad= wrote:Second, Islam never limits the movements of women. They can be anything they want. They have equal rights in education. They can be doctors, engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, writers, politicians, etc.

Can you please take the word Islam out? Some of you guys don't wanna associate Islam and human rights since you guys say they don't have anything to do with Islam. Now you wanted to link them together? And when we talk about Islam, you guys will start saying oh remember the rule, no politics and religion.
Last edited by MissLT on Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby MissLT » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:59 am

=Ahmad= wrote:Fourthly, let’s discuss your case.
As I said before, it’s just fine for women to be a taxi driver. They can open the taxi glass windows so that people can see her, pass public areas where there are a lot of people there, or being accompanied by her relatives such as her kid, or select the passengers to take. My suggestion is if that’s the only job available and suitable with her expertise, then just take it. But if there are some other jobs out there, why not try to apply for them.

Thank you very much.

Excuse me, how can they be a taxi driver when they are not even allowed to drive in some Muslim countries? Who are you fooling here with this kinda explanation? :roll:

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Postby MissLT » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:07 am

Moody wrote:THE REALITY FACT IS SECULAR WESTERNS ARE AFRAID OF SUPERIOR ISLAMIC LAWS AND SOCIAL SYSTEM COMPARE TO THEIR LAWS WHICH HAS ALREADY LOST THE MORAL AND PRINCIPLE GROUNDS AND A HOUCH POUCH OF CONFUSION AND DOUBLE STANDARDS!

Okay enough said here. I don't think we need to argue more. Let the words speak for themselves and for people to judge. :roll:

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Postby Moody » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:55 am

mentarget wrote:Moody, you went too far by using what is writing in the Holy Bible as your points.


Would you like to elaborate what is holy about the verses I quoted from your bible?

By the way what does Christianity means "Begotten son"?
And what about other incorrect and proven wrong information.

Are they all PROOF of present Bible Divinity?
And also the PROOF, that it is not fabricated?

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Postby Oriani » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:37 pm

Moody wrote:
mentarget wrote:Moody, you went too far by using what is writing in the Holy Bible as your points.


Would you like to elaborate what is holy about the verses I quoted from your bible?

By the way what does Christianity means "Begotten son"?
And what about other incorrect and proven wrong information.

Are they all PROOF of present Bible Divinity?
And also the PROOF, that it is not fabricated?


:?

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Postby Oriani » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:38 pm

I don't know why we can't talk about these topics without arguing too much...

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Postby Krisi » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:43 pm

I think this discussion is too much now. Matters not related to the actual topic is being raised to a point. There is no more respect in each ones belief. :( (It's as if there's one here who's perfect. Which is so unrealistic already...)
A lot has been said about the practices and rules of Islam religion and it is now leading to confussion. Even the real experts are keeping themselves quiet by not linking up unrelated topics on certain matters to avoid misunderstandings and confussion, I supposed. Why can't you?
I think showing off too much is not good (as in comparing one from the other). Keep a little for the rest to judge because the flaws will be very obvious later on if you go further into it. Otherwise, imperfections will eventually come out by itself. (Someone's actually spilling out the beans here. :P )
I could almost peek (from this discussion) that the rigidity of such religion shows that the women are almost treated like animals and not as humane beings. Have pity!
(Gosh! and even this news about that lady is being used to hitch up new faucet for discussion about the religion... let it rest!)

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Postby MissLT » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:06 pm

You're hitting the nail on the head there, krisi. Well said.

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Postby Krisi » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:10 pm

LennyeTran wrote:You're hitting the nail on the head there, krisi. Well said.


Thanks Lenne, I'm grateful you got what I mean.
Honestly, I don't know much about Islam but because of this, I have learned and have seen (:shock:) a lot! (good and evil) :shock: .... I don't want to know more than these! Horrible!
Talks about that woman should rest really. I noticed she's being used to the maximum. Is this how women are being treated there? Is this what they call respect? Even this news, the fact that she's a woman is being hauled to nowhere (by her "co-believer" in religion.). Where's the respect here? (Whether she's deserving of such respect or not she should be respected because she's humane! or is it really only for men?)
Now, this is a part of what I've seen from this discussion if they'll add more for sure I'll see more...:twisted:

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Postby jrkp » Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:43 am

=Ahmad= wrote:Dear JRKP,

Firstly, there are several types of punishment in this world such as (life) imprisonment, fine, house arrest, grounded, exile, and even death sentence. Whipping is just one of them.
........


Dear Ahmad, You can't compare the kind of punishments you mentioned... None of them imply suffering, and that's the whole point here... it's not the same to be at home without going anywhere than be whipped 200 times...

=Ahmad= wrote:......

Secondly, as far as I know (correct me If I am wrong) every law is strict. It’s the practice which is flexible. Similarly, Islamic law (system) is strict, but the practice is very flexible/ situational. For example, Islam forbids Muslims to consume pork. But if that’s the ONLY food available (I am sure that this situation is almost impossible to happen), then it’s allowed to consume it.


Well Ahmad, to me, not every law is strict. Every law is supposed to be FAIR... Believe it or not, there is a subtle difference... For example, if someone kills in self-defense, I think he shouldn't get the same sentence than someone who kill in cold blood.

=Ahmad= wrote:.....

Secondly, as far as I know (correct me If I am wrong) every law is strict. It’s the practice which is flexible. Similarly, Islamic law (system) is strict, but the practice is very flexible/ situational. For example, Islam forbids Muslims to consume pork. But if that’s the ONLY food available (I am sure that this situation is almost impossible to happen), then it’s allowed to consume it.


I couldn't say it better!!! Let's see.. Here's a women who was raped by 7 men. Then she was sentence to spend 90 says in prison and be whipped 200 times for break a law.

I wonder.. Where is the flexibility here? I mean, It isn't punishment enough be raped?. That's the whole discussion about, the lack of flexibilty of the judiciary system in middle east countries.

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The sharia'a law is not satanic.

Postby =Ahmad= » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:44 am

Dear JRKP.

Firstly, I completely agree that killing for self-defense is different from killing people in cold-blooded ways.

Secondly, there are hundreds of punishments run every single day in Muslim countries from fine to imprisonment to death sentences. But this is rarely publicized since these kinds of punishments are also implemented in secular countries.

When whippings and cutting off hands (which are rarely done compared to other kinds of punishments) are implemented then some media expose them as if they are the only punishments in Islam. To be honest, I am learning these kinds of punishments, especially the psychological and social impacts. Next time, after I can grasp the concept, the implementation and positive sides well, I’ll share it with you.

Thirdly, I am not intending to show off Islam. I am just trying to clarify misunderstandings about Islam. The criminal law is only a small part in Sharia’a law. There are other concepts which are good to be implemented even in secular countries.

One of them is the sharia’a law on banking system. There have been a lot of scholars (not only Muslims) researching this concept. Some of them give positive appreciation on this concept.

The result is the establishment of Islamic banks in some secular countries. The UK is one of them. An Islamic bank (The Islamic Bank of Britain) has been set up in the UK.

The establishment of Islamic banks in secular countries is not only intending to accommodate Muslims’ aspirations but also because this kind of bank is considered a good alternative.

The customers of Islamic banks are not only Muslims but also non-Muslims. Why are there a lot of non-Muslim customers in Islamic banks?

First, the board of management is reliable because they have been recognized as honest people in its society. Besides, they are also professionals who know what they are doing.

Second, Islamic banks are considered safer and more impartial. The chances of fraud and money laundry to happen are very very small. It’s not only because the management are honest people but also because the system never tolerates cheating and injustice.


Dear Mofo.
Hope this would be useful. The sharia’a law is not satanic.

Thank you very much.

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Postby Moody » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:24 am

You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have..
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THAT EVERY RATIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!

MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)

Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT ITS FROM SOMEONE WHO IS COMMUNICATING TO A HUMAN AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)

- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.


Verses about:

1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female atributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animals behaviour and how they communicate.

AND MANY MORE............

THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.


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