About Bible

Oriani · Post by **Oriani** » September 6th, 2006, 7:46 pm

Tora wrote:
Oriani wrote:Perfect. Tora! :P
not at all (my turn to turn red :P )

Hahaha did u see? It's easy to get blushed :P

Lalee · Post by **Lalee** » September 6th, 2006, 7:59 pm

Oriani wrote: Yes, I go to Chruch every Sunday, but fortunately me and my family don't believe such Idols! We recognize that Mary was Jesus's mom and about the Angel who told her about the baby. That's O.K; but those Saints and so on??? I don't like it.I mean, ok, they were good people when they were alive, but I don't understand why they have to be Saints and we have to pray them. Some people say that I'm not a good Catholic because of that, but why not?? I do Believe in Jesus Christ and God, I think is the most important thing. But I do love being Catholic and I respect it!!! :P

So you love being catholic even when there are some things you disagree on? Isn't that odd?
I think you like it because all your family is into it too.
Why would someone love being part of a group when he or she didn't even understand it???

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » September 6th, 2006, 8:07 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: Same thing for Buddhists who worship Buddha statues and do all kinda praying. I don't think it's nonsense, though. It's just a way to show your respect. Whatever fits you!
I don't really know much about Buddhism so I can't say much about it. I guess they have a book they follow as well that's similar to the Bible?

Bunch of books, not just one like the Bible.

Lalee wrote:Your teacher might be right but it really depends on the type of religion they're into.
Catholics and Christians both believe in the Bible, right? Now if in the Bible says that God does not like it when people worship other false gods, idols or whatever we want to call them...Why do they still do it? Isn't that stupid?

But the Bible was written by men!!! For example, we know God doesn't like killing, but Christians believe in the Judgement Day. And the Bible says believe in Jesus Christ, for you'll be saved. However, what if a person who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ but a nice person and a person who believes in him but is a murder, who would be saved?

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » September 6th, 2006, 8:11 pm

Lalee wrote:
The weirdest thing about Catholicism is that they worship Mary more than God. Why would I want to worship a woman who was just like me? The only difference between me and her is that she got chosen. She didn't remain virgin all her life so she was just a regular woman who got God's blessing and that's it.

I don't know. I asked Chris and he said it's more about respect than worshipping. Same like you respect Mother Teresa.

Lalee · Post by **Lalee** » September 6th, 2006, 9:14 pm

LennyeTran wrote: But the Bible was written by men!!!

Not exactly. God had to use men to write it. I don't think He has hands to do it Himself. :)
Listen to this:
2 Peter 1, 20-21
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

LennyeTran wrote: For example, we know God doesn't like killing, but Christians believe in the Judgement Day. And the Bible says believe in Jesus Christ, for you'll be saved. However, what if a person who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ but a nice person and a person who believes in him but is a murder, who would be saved?

Although what I'm about to say might sound unfair, it's the truth. The murderer would be saved.

God only accepts the ones who believe in His son, Jesus. To him we are the same. All human beings have good and bad sides so there's really not much difference to God.
To Him, there's only one way for people to go to heaven and that's Jesus.
And through the Bible He gives us many examples.

In Exodus 12 there's this story about the Passover.
12For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
13And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt
He asked the israelites to slaughter an animal without defect and with some of its blood they had to put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of their houses.
I bet there were nice and bad people before our eyes in those houses but, did God care about that? He only cared about the blood painted. If they saw the blood, that house got saved and if HE didn't, they were destroyed. As simple as that.
The only people who got saved were the ones who followed and believed in what God told them to do.

Even Egyptians could've gotten saved if they had believed in that.

The same goes with the story in Luke 23 about two criminals who were sentenced to death like Jesus was. Both of them were criminals and deserved to die on the cross but only one got saved. Did he do a good deed? Was he a good person? Only one of them recognized Jesus as the saviour by asking Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom and we can see he got saved when Jesus told him that this criminal was going to be with Him in paradise.
Also there are more stories like these ones where God shows us that trying to be a good person will not lead us to heaven.

So we can conclude that going to heaven does not depend on our good deeds or how nice people we are.

Lalee · Post by **Lalee** » September 6th, 2006, 9:46 pm

LennyeTran wrote: I don't know. I asked Chris and he said it's more about respect than worshipping. Same like you respect Mother Teresa.

Well to me, what they do with Mary is called worship. They even dare call her "Mother of God" Like, what the heck is that?

Lalee · Post by **Lalee** » September 6th, 2006, 9:56 pm

Tora wrote: this is just for me when I think about praying, visiting church and all that kind of stuff true christians are supposed to do (or not supposed to according to the bible) - if you follow god's law you are true christian and not matter how you pray and how you cross yourself

I know what you mean but God doesn't care much what your point of view is. It sounds kind of selfish but how can we know the way we think it's right or not? How can we be 100% of that? I think He knows better than us.
Isaiah 55
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Admiral · Post by **Admiral** » September 6th, 2006, 10:38 pm

The professor is always right.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » September 6th, 2006, 10:46 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: But the Bible was written by men!!!
Not exactly. God had to use men to write it. I don't think He has hands to do it Himself. :)

Permission to laugh, please?

One question, how does God look like to you?

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » September 6th, 2006, 10:52 pm

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: I don't know. I asked Chris and he said it's more about respect than worshipping. Same like you respect Mother Teresa.
Well to me, what they do with Mary is called worship. They even dare call her "Mother of God" Like, what the heck is that?

It seems like that to me, but respect can be seen as worshipping when it comes to religions. In Vietnamese, Virgin Mary is Me Maria or Me Dong Trinh (Virgin). They called her Me (Mother) Thien Chua (Jesus Christ) (Mother of Jesus Christ if you translated it). I don't know about English version. I have to ask Chris.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » September 6th, 2006, 11:41 pm

Lalee wrote: Although what I'm about to say might sound unfair, it's the truth. The murderer would be saved.

God only accepts the ones who believe in His son, Jesus. To him we are the same. All human beings have good and bad sides so there's really not much difference to God.
To Him, there's only one way for people to go to heaven and that's Jesus.

Yours and my cousin's and Chris's explanation are different. According to my cousin and Chris, the one who killed and believed in Jesus Christ won't be forgiven of sins; therefore, denied Heaven. The nice person who didn't believe in Jesus Christ would go to hell and would be saved to Heaven when he acknowledged Jesus Christ. They both ended up in hell for their own sins.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » September 6th, 2006, 11:51 pm

Lalee wrote:
The same goes with the story in Luke 23 about two criminals who were sentenced to death like Jesus was. Both of them were criminals and deserved to die on the cross but only one got saved. Did he do a good deed? Was he a good person? Only one of them recognized Jesus as the saviour by asking Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom and we can see he got saved when Jesus told him that this criminal was going to be with Him in paradise.
Also there are more stories like these ones where God shows us that trying to be a good person will not lead us to heaven.

So we can conclude that going to heaven does not depend on our good deeds or how nice people we are.

You said both of them were criminals though. Not one of them was nice and one was not and the unkind person got saved because he acknowledged Jesus as a savior.

Lalee · Post by **Lalee** » September 7th, 2006, 12:29 am

LennyeTran wrote: Yours and my cousin's and Chris's explanation are different. According to my cousin and Chris, the one who killed and believed in Jesus Christ won't be forgiven of sins; therefore, denied Heaven.

I thought Jesus came to save us from sin and hell.
So now if the murderer believed and still goes to hell..what's the point in believing in Jesus'death??
Ask them this question, if Jesus came to this earth to save us from sin, what role do we play in that sacrifice? I mean, if God says we're saved through Christ, what else is left to do?

LennyeTran wrote: The nice person who didn't believe in Jesus Christ would go to hell and would be saved to Heaven when he acknowledged Jesus Christ. They both ended up in hell for their own sins.

he would go to hell and would be saved to heaven? How can someone go to hell and then go to heaven?
Yes, both of them sinned but there's one difference between them. One believed and they other didn't. Salvation is about believing and faith rather than doing something.

Lalee · Post by **Lalee** » September 7th, 2006, 12:31 am

LennyeTran wrote: You said both of them were criminals though. Not one of them was nice and one was not and the unkind person got saved because he acknowledged Jesus as a savior.

Uh huh so... what's your point?

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » September 7th, 2006, 12:35 am

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: Yours and my cousin's and Chris's explanation are different. According to my cousin and Chris, the one who killed and believed in Jesus Christ won't be forgiven of sins; therefore, denied Heaven.
I thought Jesus came to save us from sin and hell.
So now if the murderer believed and still goes to hell..what's the point in believing in Jesus'death??

If you believe in Jesus Christ; hence, you would believe in his teaching. This is what they mean. And if you believe in his teaching, why would you go against it to kill others? They say you can't fake your way out to heaven by just saying you've acknowledged when you won't follow his teaching afterwards.

Lalee wrote:Ask them this question, if Jesus came to this earth to save us from sin, what role do we play in that sacrifice? I mean, if God says we're saved through Christ, what else is left to do?

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. :?

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: The nice person who didn't believe in Jesus Christ would go to hell and would be saved to Heaven when he acknowledged Jesus Christ. They both ended up in hell for their own sins.

he would go to hell and would be saved to heaven? How can someone go to hell and then go to heaven?
Yes, both of them sinned but there's one difference between them. One believed and they other didn't. Salvation is about believing and faith rather than doing something.

When he went to hell, then he would realize there was hell and heaven and there was the presence of Jesus Christ and his mind would be enlighted. Thus, when he acknowledged Jesus Christ and his teaching, he'll go to heaven.

jeffcox · Post by **jeffcox** » September 7th, 2006, 12:35 am

The only way to God is to praise him.

So, he's egoistic, self-centred and really loves himself.

The Bible is full of evidence to uphold this statement.

If you don't do what God says, and you don't follow his rules, and if you don't recognize him... You're really up the creek without a paddle!

So, do Christians do good things because they will get into heaven (be rewarded), which would be a very egoistic thing to do?

Why be good at all? I mean, you can be as evil and terrible as you want to be throughout your life, then at the moment you meet God, you just beg his forgiveness and BINGO, freeway to heaven.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » September 7th, 2006, 12:36 am

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: You said both of them were criminals though. Not one of them was nice and one was not and the unkind person got saved because he acknowledged Jesus as a savior.
Uh huh so... what's your point?

It doesn't look like my example. DUH, slow-ee.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » September 7th, 2006, 12:39 am

jeffcox wrote: Why be good at all? I mean, you can be as evil and terrible as you want to be throughout your life, then at the moment you meet God, you just beg his forgiveness and BINGO, freeway to heaven.

Exactly! That's what I said to my cousin, and she said it's a wrong interpretation. Believing in Christ is a semi-guarantee ticket for you to be in heaven; however, you have to follow his teaching. Oherwise, you're just a common sinner.

Lalee · Post by **Lalee** » September 7th, 2006, 12:39 am

LennyeTran wrote: Permission to laugh, please? One question, how does God look like to you?

I knew you were going to laugh.
What does God look like to me?
Well he definitely doesn't look like a human being. There's a part in the Bible that describes Him a little bit.
Revelation 4
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

Lalee · Post by **Lalee** » September 7th, 2006, 12:43 am

LennyeTran wrote: It doesn't look like my example. DUH, slow-ee.

You're contagious.
I'll look for a better example then.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » September 7th, 2006, 12:50 am

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: Permission to laugh, please? One question, how does God look like to you?
I knew you were going to laugh.
What does God look like to me?
Well he definitely doesn't look like a human being. There's a part in the Bible that describes Him a little bit.
Revelation 4
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

Have you seen him in your mind?

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » September 7th, 2006, 12:51 am

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: It doesn't look like my example. DUH, slow-ee.
You're contagious.
I'll look for a better example then.

Hehehehhee my cousin explained to me about that example, and it did not look like mine by the way. You'd better get another one. 8)

Lalee · Post by **Lalee** » September 7th, 2006, 12:55 am

LennyeTran wrote: If you believe in Jesus Christ; hence, you would believe in his teaching. This is what they mean. And if you believe in his teaching, why would you go against it to kill others? They say you can't fake your way out to heaven by just saying you've acknowledged when you won't follow his teaching afterwards.

Yes, they're right. That's why I was going to say something when you gave me the example including the murderer. If someone gets saved and knows what Jesus did for them, he or she just can't be around killing people and be like, "hey, Jesus died for me and washed all my sins away so I can do the hell I want now" NO! It doesn't work that way.

LennyeTran wrote: I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. :?

OK I sense that your cousin and Chris think that people need to do good to go to heaven. If the answer is yes, why did Jesus die for them? Is it better now?

LennyeTran wrote: When he went to hell, then he would realize there was hell and heaven and there was the presence of Jesus Christ and his mind would be enlighted. Thus, when he acknowledged Jesus Christ and his teaching, he'll go to heaven.

Umm... this is weird.
I don't think people have the chance to go to heaven when they're already in hell. God gives us the chance here on earth but it's too late to realize you're actually in hell and then get saved. It doesn't work that way.
Maybe I'm not following you on this. I don't know but I'm kind of confused.

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » September 7th, 2006, 1:03 am

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: If you believe in Jesus Christ; hence, you would believe in his teaching. This is what they mean. And if you believe in his teaching, why would you go against it to kill others? They say you can't fake your way out to heaven by just saying you've acknowledged when you won't follow his teaching afterwards.
Yes, they're right. That's why I was going to say something when you gave me the example including the murderer. If someone gets saved and knows what Jesus did for them, he or she just can't be around killing people and be like, "hey, Jesus died for me and washed all my sins away so I can do the hell I want now" NO! It doesn't work that way.

From what I see a nice person is a half Christian because that person does nice things for others. Is it a big deal if someone believes in Jesus Christ or not? I mean, if one believed in him and went against his teaching, that person would be even worst than the one who didn't believe in him, right?

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » September 7th, 2006, 1:16 am

Lalee wrote:
LennyeTran wrote: I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. :?
OK I sense that your cousin and Chris think that people need to do good to go to heaven. If the answer is yes, why did Jesus die for them? Is it better now?

They said Jesus died for humans to understand they are sinners and need to repent of your sins and ask for forgiveness.

Lalee · Post by **Lalee** » September 7th, 2006, 6:36 am

LennyeTran wrote: From what I see a nice person is a half Christian because that person does nice things for others. Is it a big deal if someone believes in Jesus Christ or not? I mean, if one believed in him and went against his teaching, that person would be even worst than the one who didn't believe in him, right?

I'm a Christian and I don't do nice things but I know what you mean. You're talking about following Jesus's teaching. Since he did good while he was here, his followers have to do the same thing as well, no?
Superficially we can see that he helped a lot of people. He did things like curing illnesses most of all, right? Not only did he cure their bodies but also he cured them from sin. He didn't come here to teach us to cure people but to show us how to get rid of sin.
The best thing a Christian can do is preaching the Gospel to people who are not born again yet. Jesus never gave alms to the poor. He was always preaching the Gospel everywhere he went.
What would God like better? Saving souls or saving bodies?
If a born-again Christian commits a horrible thing against God, that person does not lose salvation but when he dies, he will have problems. In the bible says that some Christians will be exalted and others will be embarrassed.
So Christianity is not about being nice but believing in Jesus' sacrifice and follow a life depending on the Lord and understanding His will in our lives.

Lalee · Post by **Lalee** » September 7th, 2006, 6:47 am

LennyeTran wrote: Hehehehhee my cousin explained to me about that example, and it did not look like mine by the way. You'd better get another one. 8)

OK I've got a good one.
Luke 18
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

So the men who acknowledged himself as a sinner and a wicked person who didn't deserve God's mercy got justified.
So before receiving salvation, you need to know that you're a sinner and that you need God's help. The man who got justified asked for God's mercy.
Sin is like a wall that separates God from people that's why God wants them to get rid of it.

Lalee · Post by **Lalee** » September 7th, 2006, 7:02 am

LennyeTran wrote: They said Jesus died for humans to understand they are sinners and need to repent of your sins and ask for forgiveness.

Moses' Law is what makes people understand they're sinners not Jesus' death.
Romans 3
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

And how do they repent? What do they do?
Also if Jesus died for humans and through his death God forgave us all our sins, then why would people need to ask for forgiveness again?

MissLT · Post by **MissLT** » September 7th, 2006, 6:46 pm

Lalee wrote: So Christianity is not about being nice but believing in Jesus' sacrifice and follow a life depending on the Lord and understanding His will in our lives.

I find it a bit contradictory. According to my cousin and Chris, Jesus was born because humans were in the path towards Satan instead of God. They thought they were better than God. They had no conscience. And they felt no remorse. Thus, God promised one would be saved if that person believed in Christ and followed his teaching.

If one understood his teaching and his sacrifice, then one should be nice others because that's what his teaching is all about, isn't it? If one understood all these above and couldn't be nice to others, how would it work? Isn't it a hypocritical thought? I mean, "yeah, I understand his teaching, but do I have to be nice because I'm just a human being?" And then one ends up not being nice. Then ask for forgiveness on the Judgement Day because they understand why Jesus was here on earth?!?!?!?!?!??!!?

Lalee · Post by **Lalee** » September 8th, 2006, 7:31 am

LennyeTran wrote: Thus, God promised one would be saved if that person believed in Christ and followed his teaching.

Uh huh.

LennyeTran wrote: If one understood his teaching and his sacrifice, then one should be nice others because that's what his teaching is all about, isn't it?

Not exactly.
Read this: Luke 4
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

In verse 18 we can clearly see what Jesus did while he lived on earth. Through all those things, he wanted to show people that their souls were sick with sin and that they needed someone who could cure them from sin.
Jesus also called some people serpents, and generation of vipers and insulted them somehow. Was he being nice to them? He just wanted to show them how wrong they were.
Also His followers were His disciples and we can see through the Bible that their only duty was preaching the Gospel to others. It was not about being nice to others. Most of them left their families to follow Jesus.
So his teaching was not about being nice but showing people that their lives were being led by Satan and that He was there to help them.

LennyeTran wrote: If one understood all these above and couldn't be nice to others, how would it work? Isn't it a hypocritical thought? I mean, "yeah, I understand his teaching, but do I have to be nice because I'm just a human being?" And then one ends up not being nice. Then ask for forgiveness on the Judgement Day because they understand why Jesus was here on earth?!?!?!?!?!??!!?

Where does it say in the Bible that we can ask for forgiveness on the Judgement Day?
God gives us the chance here to get saved through Jesus and when you die sure all people will get to that day and that's when God sends you to heaven or hell. God is the judge, Jesus your defender, the devil your accuser and you the accused.

Christians are people whose job is sharing the Gospel with others, if they do that they're following Jesus's teaching.
Why would God care if you're nice to others or not when He already knows you can't do good? We think we do good but we don't. Before our eyes, some people are good and others are bad but before God's sight, all of us are bad. We say that we have good and bad sides but it doesn't work that way for Him. We're bad period. That's why God can't accept our sacrifice. He needs something perfect. You know that the wages of sin is death, right? So since we're born with sin, we just can't do anything for ourselves to get rid of it because we're like infected and we can't die for our sins either. That's when Jesus comes. Since he's perfect, God can accept his death.
It can be complicated to understand God's heart or the way He sees things but we just live in different worlds.
Can a cockroach understand our world?