About Bible

[jeffcox]

LennyeTran is correct in saying that it's a bit contradictory.

The bible says that we must repent our sins first. Only then, can we be judged on how we followed the teachings of Jesus and be given forgiveness by God.

But there are so many stories in the bible that contradict this statement, as have already been told here, where people have repented their sins and were given God's blessing, even though they did not follow Jesus's teachings.

There are so many, in fact, that it would be more logical to believe that repenting our sins provides a free ticket to heaven.

[jeffcox]

We're bad period. That's why God can't accept our sacrifice. He needs something perfect. You know that the wages of sin is death, right? So since we're born with sin, we just can't do anything for ourselves to get rid of it because we're like infected and we can't die for our sins either.

That's right. From the moment after we're born, we're all sinners. Damned from the start!

God wants us to be perfect. The only way we can be perfect is to do what He wants and beg Him for mercy. He gives us the ability to think and make decisions and blames us if we don't do what He wants... that's really sick.

He wants us all to be yes-boys, brown-nosers, and bless Him for all that He does for us. In other words, He has to be superior... everything that the bible teaches us is a sin. Therefore, God is a sinner and does not deserve our blessing.

Logic is a wonderful gift... from God

[BrianFitz]

I have browsed through bits of this thread, and I have to say I am saddened and I can now understand why there are holy wars. Purhaps I did not read the postings where people where having intelligent dialogues about religions. Some seem only to be spewing the doctrine so ingrained in the heads since by there religious communities they cloud their judgement with what is right and wrong. Religion has caused such a great divide in all acroos the globe. It's funny to think that Crusaders went to fight muslims because they Believed in the same god they just had different ways of worship. Stupid. Religion blinds people. I know I look at the catholic Family In which I was raised and see the vail of ignorance it cast on me my twelve years of catholic school. There is no one true religion, only one true God. How you coose to worship that God is matter of your own faith and your own understanding of who God is. And don't let anyone take that from you, Not With Bible quotes or Tiraids from a pulpit. No Spiritually leader is closer to God than you are. No one was made great than the other. Keep your religion if you want, I still go to a Catholic Churc but I don't buy everything they sell. Yes, Religion is a busness. I buy what I like and you may say that is convienent and you would be right. I like what makes me feel good and I feel good about it because it is what I feel god wants me to choose.
No I haven't read the bible cover to cover, maybe some day I will. But I am not going to spend years of my life Justing any religion because I was told it was the best religion the one true religion- All religions believe this in one way or another.
I have study several world religions and I have come to discover some claring similarities. I wont tell you what they are as you should look to do the same.
So enough talk about the Bible (a great book written by fallible men) and enough about Catholics and Christians and muslims and buddhists and angostics and enough about who is right and wrong, God can only tell you that. So my advice to is to have faith; have faith in God, Buddha, Alah, mankind,yourself. You decide. It doesn't matter which one you choose as I believe if you believe in anything you believe in God (an omnipotent power that is every where all the time). So stop bickering and start believing...believing is something...anything Just believe. "Spirituality Unites, Religions divide"

[BrianFitz]

s"

[MissLT]

In verse 18 we can clearly see what Jesus did while he lived on earth. Through all those things, he wanted to show people that their souls were sick with sin and that they needed someone who could cure them from sin.

Because to him they were indeed sinners. From what I know about the Bible, only Jesus was allowed to join God in heaven without being judged. He was born pure from all sins. Hence, he was a savior to guide people out of their sins.

Jesus also called some people serpents, and generation of vipers and insulted them somehow. Was he being nice to them? He just wanted to show them how wrong they were.

My being nice is not about the fake talks, the let's make love not wars ~. My being nice is thou shalt not murder or whatever the ten commandments are. Or a little more to it. A good conscience, good judgement, good common sense, you know.

This is why I said a nice person is already a half Christian. And I don't see anything is wrong with not recognizing Jesus as a savior. I mean, if you live a life with no regret, no shame, no whatsoever, do you need someone to tell you that you're a sinner? I mean, what's the use of living a life without any harm done and being called a sinner?

I once asked my cousin what about monks who don't recognize Jesus as a savior. Would they go to hell or heaven? She said hell. I asked her why. She said because they don't recognize Jesus as a savior. I told her it's not a crime, though. Why would they have to be in hell to feel all ther remorse that they didn't recognize Jesus? Doesn't that mean God likes to punish more than judging you for who you are? And a bit of a control freak, I might say. Punish those who don't believe in his work....

[MissLT]

Where does it say in the Bible that we can ask for forgiveness on the Judgement Day?
God gives us the chance here to get saved through Jesus and when you die sure all people will get to that day and that's when God sends you to heaven or hell. God is the judge, Jesus your defender, the devil your accuser and you the accused.

You just answered your own question, silly.

Why would God care if you're nice to others or not when He already knows you can't do good?

Isn't it a bit contradictory to what Jesus was meant to be here on earth? I mean, wasn't it a total waste of time for him to acknowledge ignorants when he was given the message that people should be ignored? Why would God send Jesus to help humans with their sins when he alread knew they would end up repeating their sins? So was Jesus here just to tell people how sinful they were and not in a mean of a second chance for humans? :?

We think we do good but we don't. Before our eyes, some people are good and others are bad but before God's sight, all of us are bad.

It doesn't matter what we've done?

[MissLT]

LennyeTran is correct in saying that it's a bit contradictory.

The bible says that we must repent our sins first. Only then, can we be judged on how we followed the teachings of Jesus and be given forgiveness by God.

This is what I thought.

[MissLT]

So enough talk about the Bible (a great book written by fallible men) and enough about Catholics and Christians and muslims and buddhists and angostics and enough about who is right and wrong, God can only tell you that.

Thank you. We've been having a good conversation so far about the Bible. If you feel like joining in, be our guest. Otherwise, please leave us with our conversation. We have no hostility towards each other even we're talking about the Bible right now. She doesn't tell me her religion is the truest, or she doesn't tell me to check her sites to get the "right" information. Same thing with others in this topic. Thus, I'm pretty okay to discuss with them.

[Danyet]

BrianFitz, you sound like a real idiot. You admit that you have not even read the Bible and then attempt to tell us that we have said enough on the subject!

Not only that you assign incorrect motives to the Crusaders. The Crusaders did not worship the same God. The Biblical God's name is "Yahwey". The Muslim god is "Allah" which predates Mohammed as a spirit worshiped by early pagan Arabs.

Lastly, Crusaders were urged on by the political need the fight back the Muslim hordes that had already infected southern Europe and were on the threshold of the Vatican in Rome.
You are the prime example of "a little knowlege is dangerous".

[MissLT]

BrianFitz, you sound like a real idiot. You admit that you have not even read the Bible and then attempt to tell us that we have said enough on the subject!

Not only that you assign incorrect motives to the Crusaders. The Crusaders did not worship the same God. The Biblical God's name is "Yahwey". The Muslim god is "Allah" which predates Mohammed as a spirit worshiped by early pagan Arabs.

Lastly, Crusaders were urged on by the political need the fight back the Muslim hordes that had already infected southern Europe and were on the threshold of the Vatican in Rome.
You are the prime example of "a little knowlege is dangerous".

You just can't help yourself, can you? If you ruined it, I'd ask you to leave, too. Don't you dare ruining it, babe. I have sharp teeth and know how to bite.

[MissLT]

How have you been, by the way? Still the States?

[Danyet]

Still here for the time being!

Anyway I couldn't help it! That Brian guy makes no sense at all. Why does he even still go to mass? He has no business making comments on Lalee's posts like that.
Hey Brian....go bake a cake or something. :)

[MissLT]

Still here for the time being!

Anyway I couldn't help it! That Brian guy makes no sense at all. Why does he even still go to mass? He has no business making comments on Lalee's posts like that.
Hey Brian....go bake a cake or something. :)

Ahem ahem ahem, Lalee's posts only? You're telling me you don't read mine?!??!?!?! Don't make me scratch your eyes out.

[Lalee]

Hey Brian....go bake a cake or something. :)

[Admiral]

Brian is not the real idiot here.

[MissLT]

Brian is not the real idiot here.

If you have nothing to talk about the Bible, I suggest you to go elsewhere or PM Danyet for your personal vendetta. I don't have much time to go further on with this nonsense attack. You've having this little message as a warning.

Do not ruin the thread and make it locked with your selfish little thought, okay. Thank you so much.

[Danyet]

The thing that makes the Bible so unique is its historical value. So far the Bible has given many details of ancient life and customs.
Even things written about in the Bible that seemed to be improbable to modern science and historians has eventually been proven to be correct.

One example is the Biblical story of a particular battle between Israelites and Assyrians. The Assyrians had amassed a great army that vastly outnumbered the Israelites. The Israelites feared for their own destruction. However, the Bible states that "the angel of Yahwey went out and in one night slew 85,000 Assyrian soldiers" thereby saving Israel. (I am not sure of the exact number but it was unbelievably large.)

Modern day historians did not believe this story until recently when archeologists found a stone tablet with the legal and royal writings from the king of Assyria on it.
This stone tablet told the same story that the Bible told, except that it was from the Assyrians point of view. It stated that the Assyrian king had the Israelites out numbered but decided to withdraw from the battle with the Israelite because 85,000 of his soldiers died from a plauge in one night.

There are many such stories as this in the Bible. Little slices of ancient life. And predictions that have apparently come true. I find them quite fascinating.

There! Are you happy Lennye? The thread is back on track now.

[MissLT]

Muaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Of course, I am!

[jeffcox]

danyet, your last post shows how normal, scientific events were explained and understood as mystical and miraculous workings of God.

It may also explain how Jesus was seen as some gift from God, but may simply have been a Mother Teresa, a person who dedicated his life to helping others.

If we consider that many stories in the bible are considered parables, and many are later explained as natural occurance instead of a miracle or mystical event, then what exactly is left to believe in?

How much of what is left proves that Jesus, or God, is anything more than superstition and over-imagination?

[Danyet]

danyet, your last post shows how normal, scientific events were explained and understood as mystical and miraculous workings of God.

My post explained nothing of the sort. I did not attempt to explain how 85,000 men died of a mysterious disease that killed them all in one night. I seriously doubt that science has a proper explanation either!

You can all draw your own conclusions how to explain these occurrences.

[Shazzam]

danyet, your last post shows how normal, scientific events were explained and understood as mystical and miraculous workings of God.

My post explained nothing of the sort. I did not attempt to explain how 85,000 men died of a mysterious disease that killed them all in one night. I seriously doubt that science has a proper explanation either!

You can all draw your own conclusions how to explain these occurrences.

Applause! 8) :D

[jeffcox]

You could question the idea of 'in one night'.

Many languages have an expression such as in Engish 'overnight' which is often used for something that happens suddenly or very quickly. It doesn't really have to be taken literally to mean during one night only.

And your text does indicate that many events could have a logical explanation.

Again, it's a question of faith. And, I repeat that it is highly improbable, if not impossible, that you could change someone's religious faith through logical argument.

[Danyet]

It matters not whether there are logical scientific reasons or not. That was not the point i was making!!
The point is --- that at one time Biblical stories were simply dismissed as fables by science --- but modern archeology has proven the stories to be accurate in every detail time and time again.

The book covers thousands of years of history and is probably the most important document available to us. For generations it was painstakingly recited and remembered and then painstakingly copied. The Dead Sea Scrolls proved how accurate it has been copied.

[jeffcox]

Of this, I agree with you. It's an invaluable historical document.

[MissLT]

But I don't see it as a big deal, though, big D. The Bible was written by men. Therefore, it's not a big surprise that it has historical facts in it. :?

[Lalee]

Because to him they were indeed sinners. From what I know about the Bible, only Jesus was allowed to join God in heaven without being judged. He was born pure from all sins. Hence, he was a savior to guide people out of their sins.

Very good!

My being nice is not about the fake talks, the let's make love not wars ~. My being nice is thou shalt not murder or whatever the ten commandments are. Or a little more to it. A good conscience, good judgement, good common sense, you know.

I know what you mean but what I was trying to say is that most people think that Jesus' teaching is all about being a good person, that's why they always try to do good if they want to have a good relation with God. They're like, "Today I've been such a nice person. I did this, I did that" so they feel as if God is proud of them for what they did.
Sometimes when I ask people, "How can someone go to heaven?" They usually say, "You have to be a good person if you want to enter there."
Do you understand what I was getting at?
Now I'm not saying that it's bad to do good for others. But what's wrong is to expect to have a reward from God for doing such things like in this case would be going to heaven.
As for the 10 commandments, read this:
Romans 3, 28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
And there are many similar verses like that one.

This is why I said a nice person is already a half Christian. And I don't see anything is wrong with not recognizing Jesus as a savior. I mean, if you live a life with no regret, no shame, no whatsoever, do you need someone to tell you that you're a sinner? I mean, what's the use of living a life without any harm done and being called a sinner?

Most people see a Christian like a nice person so I know what you're trying to say. If you meet someone who tells you he is a Christian but you know this person has killed someone, how would you see him? You wouldn't see him as a real Christian, right?
I wouldn't see him as one either.
After you receive salvation, in the Bible says that you're led by the Holy Spirit and I don't think the Holy Spirit will let you do such thing.
Also I don't think a real Christian would do it either since he knows what Jesus did for him. Now let's suppose he does it. Then that would be a problem between him and God. God gave him such person the chance to know the truth about the Gospel and get saved so what that person is supposed to do is sharing what he knows about the Gospel to others and not be around killing people.

Why would they have to be in hell to feel all ther remorse that they didn't recognize Jesus? Doesn't that mean God likes to punish more than judging you for who you are? And a bit of a control freak, I might say. Punish those who don't believe in his work....

God doesn't judge you for who you are. If He did that, I think anyone would be able to enter heaven.
I know it's hard to understand Him but what can we do? For example, can we understand someone whose IQ is beyond ours? A normal person's IQ is..how much? Between 90-100? Now let's say that God has an unlimited IQ. How can we understand Him? There's a way to do it though. It's by throwing away our own beliefs and thoughts.

If He tells us something, I think it's for our own good so I guess it's better to follow Him even when it's hard to understand with our own logic.
Isaiah 29,16
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
"He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter,
"He knows nothing"?

All people want to live the way the want and don't want anyone to interfere in their lives that's why most of them don't want to have anything to do with God or any religion.
But I think it's better to have something rather than nothing, you know?

[Lalee]

Why would God send Jesus to help humans with their sins when he alread knew they would end up repeating their sins? So was Jesus here just to tell people how sinful they were and not in a mean of a second chance for humans?:?

Jesus' sacrifice is eternal. Imagine Jesus dying again and again for the sins that all people commit everyday. Wouldn't that be stupid?
Jesus' death needs to be accepted by faith believing in what God says rather than what our eyes see.
To God there's only one sin that leads people to hell. It's Adam's sin.
Romans 5, 12-13
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
So when Jesus came and died, He washed all our sins away. Although we can see the world full of sin, to God a person who believes what He says and accepts Jesus' without caring about his own logic and thoughts, then that person has no sin to God.
I'd explain it better through the old testament but I think it would be too much. People here think I'm preaching or something, you know?

It doesn't matter what we've done?

Well it seems that to God it doesn't matter too much because He sees us in a different way that we see ourselves. Even if you were a little girl, He'd see you as a sinner because of Adam's sin.
Now after you know the truth about the Gospel, then it does matter how you live before God.

[MissLT]

I know what you mean but what I was trying to say is that most people think that Jesus' teaching is all about being a good person, that's why they always try to do good if they want to have a good relation with God.

I still can't see the difference, you know. Jesus was here to wash our sins away. He was here to preach us that we were sinners and should repent our sins. He was here to preach us to love and all.

He's well-known even to the non-Christians because of the teaching give the other cheek to your enemy, so both of your cheeks would be evenly slapped. It carries many hidden messages in that story. Being tolerant even to the ignorants, peace within thou, calm, forgiveness, etc. You don't get all that from a not nice person or a Christian who doesn't understand his teaching.

Being nice and being Christian goes hand in hand. You're understood to be nice if you understand his teaching. It's a given; no question asked here. However, if you're a nice person, you're required to understand his teaching to be saved. Hence, this part I don't get.

But what's wrong is to expect to have a reward from God for doing such things like in this case would be going to heaven.

Why not? Going to heaven is not a reward to me. It's what you deserve. And if you live your life without shame, remorse, regret or anything, why don't you deserve to go to heaven?

Most people see a Christian like a nice person so I know what you're trying to say. If you meet someone who tells you he is a Christian but you know this person has killed someone, how would you see him? You wouldn't see him as a real Christian, right?
I wouldn't see him as one either.
After you receive salvation, in the Bible says that you're led by the Holy Spirit and I don't think the Holy Spirit will let you do such thing.
Also I don't think a real Christian would do it either since he knows what Jesus did for him. Now let's suppose he does it. Then that would be a problem between him and God. God gave him such person the chance to know the truth about the Gospel and get saved so what that person is supposed to do is sharing what he knows about the Gospel to others and not be around killing people.

I don't think you've answered my question in this part. :?

God doesn't judge you for who you are. If He did that, I think anyone would be able to enter heaven.

I don't agree with this. If he judged you for who you were, then less people would be allowed to heaven. Christians said Christians would be saved if they asked for forgiveness and acknowledged Jesus despite what they did. That's why I've seen people go to Church every week to confess. And what do you know, the next day they've committed the same sin.

So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus? And why would a less nice Christian go to heaven because he acknowledged Jesus? I thought Jesus died for our sins. Doesn't that mean he died for ignorants who didn't acknowledge him, if this is a sin? How come it's still a sin if people don't acknowledge Jesus? :?

I know it's hard to understand Him but what can we do? For example, can we understand someone whose IQ is beyond ours? A normal person's IQ is..how much? Between 90-100? Now let's say that God has an inlimited IQ. How can we understand Him? There's a way to do it though. It's by throwing away our own beliefs and thoughts.

Yes, you may do that. But the problem is people don't even know how wise or powerful God really is. The Bible was written by men. How sure are you to say that they indeed didn't change a bit to suit themselves?

[MissLT]

Why would God send Jesus to help humans with their sins when he alread knew they would end up repeating their sins? So was Jesus here just to tell people how sinful they were and not in a mean of a second chance for humans?:?

Jesus' sacrifice is eternal. Imagine Jesus dying again and again for the sins that all people commit everyday. Wouldn't that be stupid?
Jesus' death needs to be accepted by faith believing in what God says rather than what our eyes see.
To God there's only one sin that leads people to hell. It's Adam's sin.

Oh, I see. So in shorts, disobedience is our sin. And not acknowledging Jesus as a savior means we've disobeyed God. And that's why it's a sin, right? :?

[Admiral]

yes! According to religion, Jesus (as God's son or as a prophet) has come to make people clear that God exists and that we have to believe in him.

If we look at the philosophical side: Work gives you money and demands you setting time in it, partner give you love and demands a love fitting to him/her, parents give you love and they don't demand anything from you. (but you still fight with your parents sometimes, so it's not ideal)
And as the parent's love is true love, the philosophic idea is: Love is the only thing without demanding, so the ideal love would be the love without fight.
That is God, an object which all people love without demanding, the ideal of love.

So we should thank Jesus...

Hey, I don't believe in God. This is only my own explanation why people believe in Jesus and God and religion.

remember, I'm marxist.