Pope Benedict in Germany
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- MissLT
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I'm gonna check out what he said in Germany since Islamic leaders are angry and demanding him to apologize.
Pope said to be upset Muslims offended
Pope said to be upset Muslims offended
- Danyet
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Here we have an example of how even the Ancient people knew that Islam was evil.Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as "evil and inhuman," particularly "his command to spread by the sword the faith."
I am beginning to like this Pope afterall.
Now we have all these stupid Muslims parading in their streets, vandalizing churches etc., again. What a pack of morons!!! I can hardly contain my laughter.
Time for a napalm party, methinks!
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So this is what he said? :?
Quoting a 14th-century Byzantine emperor on the Prophet Mohammed, founder of the Muslim faith, the head of the Roman Catholic Church said: "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"
New York Times denounces pope's remarks on Islam
Quoting a 14th-century Byzantine emperor on the Prophet Mohammed, founder of the Muslim faith, the head of the Roman Catholic Church said: "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"
New York Times denounces pope's remarks on Islam
- Dixie
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I heard today that he CAN'T admit he was wrong, according to some stupid rules. The Pope can't apologize!!!!!!!! How ridiculous they are, gosh!Admiral wrote:The pope should apologize, but he doesn't.
You see the pope is racist, too.
But, regardless of whether he was wrong or not, those muslims are just nuts. Look what they're doing, just because of a few words from an old man! My goodness, where's this world going?
I wish all religions would vanish from the Earth and start living in peace!
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Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of RightReligion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people.
German economist & Communist political philosopher (1818 - 1883)
danyet, you are only blaiming what your nation has created by itself.
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Oh I see, the pope makes a historically accurate statement. The Muslims go on a rampage and blow things up.
And you blame it on America.
Then to top it off, you quote of all people, Karl Marx.
I am amazed that your pee brain has vocal capabilities.
I would ask you how you made the connection between the Pope and USA but I'm afraid your response would be just as shallow.
And you blame it on America.
Then to top it off, you quote of all people, Karl Marx.
I am amazed that your pee brain has vocal capabilities.
I would ask you how you made the connection between the Pope and USA but I'm afraid your response would be just as shallow.
The connection between them is that they all have prejudice because of religion.
The pope has prejudice against Muslims, (as I heard it in the new, maybe the news exaggerate it) the terrorists have prejudice aginst American nation, Bush has prejudice aginst the islamic nations, and these prejudices are based on religion. I think religion is nothing else than an illusion or dream, and they all make decisions based on a dream.
If you eat opium to much, you also dream. That's the connection to Marx.
I have to say sorry, maybe the root of this crisis between religion has been existed already before America.
sorry
The pope has prejudice against Muslims, (as I heard it in the new, maybe the news exaggerate it) the terrorists have prejudice aginst American nation, Bush has prejudice aginst the islamic nations, and these prejudices are based on religion. I think religion is nothing else than an illusion or dream, and they all make decisions based on a dream.
If you eat opium to much, you also dream. That's the connection to Marx.
I have to say sorry, maybe the root of this crisis between religion has been existed already before America.
sorry
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if the pope wants to talk about what is named by the the religious violence he must talk about The Christian Wars against Islam in the middle centuries ..
and israel occupation of palestine
by the name of jewish religion and killing thousands of people,,
and he must talk about what do Bush and a huge part of his supporters in america believe about the war of the end day that between evil""Islam ""and good""jewish"".
this war is the powerful reason that makes Bush supports jews .((crazy))
so 1-he wants to insult islam """ I think no,, because the ex-pope was a good man and I witness the ex-pope did a very good things,,and the current pope must be like the ex-pope because he must reflect Christianity""
2- he is very old man to think ,,so vatican must put a young pope"""
and israel occupation of palestine
by the name of jewish religion and killing thousands of people,,
and he must talk about what do Bush and a huge part of his supporters in america believe about the war of the end day that between evil""Islam ""and good""jewish"".
this war is the powerful reason that makes Bush supports jews .((crazy))
so 1-he wants to insult islam """ I think no,, because the ex-pope was a good man and I witness the ex-pope did a very good things,,and the current pope must be like the ex-pope because he must reflect Christianity""
2- he is very old man to think ,,so vatican must put a young pope"""
Last edited by ahmads on Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I think that the Pope should be better advised about what he says. On the other hand, sometimes we say things that are misinterpreted by those who hear.
It shows how volitile and sensitive the whole situation is.
The Pope was condemned without anyone asking him what his message was, what he meant to say. Muslims demand an apology, not one - as far as Iknow - has asked for clarification about what the Pope meant to say.
I think he was refering to the violence and hate that is present in religion, or for which, religion is an excuse; you choose which one.
In this sense, I agree with him. Violence there has been in both religions, throughout our history; violence on both sides - neither religion is clean on this issue.
I loved the words by French President Jacques Chirac
"We must avoid making any link between Islam, which is a great, respected and respectable religion, and radical Islamism, which is a totally different activity and one of a political nature"
Respect for the Indonesians, we could learn a lot from their protest.
"About 100 Indonesian Muslims protested peacefully over the Pope's remarks outside the Vatican embassy in Jakarta on Monday."
It shows how volitile and sensitive the whole situation is.
The Pope was condemned without anyone asking him what his message was, what he meant to say. Muslims demand an apology, not one - as far as Iknow - has asked for clarification about what the Pope meant to say.
I think he was refering to the violence and hate that is present in religion, or for which, religion is an excuse; you choose which one.
In this sense, I agree with him. Violence there has been in both religions, throughout our history; violence on both sides - neither religion is clean on this issue.
I loved the words by French President Jacques Chirac
"We must avoid making any link between Islam, which is a great, respected and respectable religion, and radical Islamism, which is a totally different activity and one of a political nature"
Respect for the Indonesians, we could learn a lot from their protest.
"About 100 Indonesian Muslims protested peacefully over the Pope's remarks outside the Vatican embassy in Jakarta on Monday."
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The catholic Pope apologises again?! oh no - boring!:(
I think that Catholic Church apologised enough hor its sins. We can hear or read here and there - Catholic Church apologises for this... or Catholic Church apologises for that... I hope to hear on the radion on TV that muslim world apologises for all these suiciders who are still killing and hurt many of innocent people who don't want to suicide themselves at all.
Thus personally I will switch off the channel when I will see Catholic Pope apologising anyone for anything again:(
Sad but true.
Thus personally I will switch off the channel when I will see Catholic Pope apologising anyone for anything again:(
Sad but true.
- MissLT
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Yes, they can. Some Popes have apologized for what other Popes did in the past. There is no such rule that a Pope can't apologize.Dixie wrote:
I heard today that he CAN'T admit he was wrong, according to some stupid rules. The Pope can't apologize!!!!!!!! How ridiculous they are, gosh!
He just didn't wanna apologize because what he said wasn't wrong. He didn't make it up by himself; he quoted someone's words. What seems wrong to me is that his motive. He said he wanted peace and build a bridge conntected Christianity and Islam. However, is it right to provoke someone's anger by telling them what they don't wanna hear?
If he quoted those words about them, which means he's already had his own image of them. Also, I don't think he didn't hear of the caricature incident. Just some guys drew some pictures, and the world was kinda upside down. They rampaged the streets and wanted to hang the guys who drew them. Now, those words were repeated from a mouth of the head of Roman Catholic Church. I don't think there is no one who wouldn't wanna kill him. What if those fanatics succeeded? And Catholics would do something back for a revenge. Blah blah blah blah... all the worst scenarios. Thus, the gap of hatred between Christianity and Islam will be even deeper and wider.
I wanna know his real motive behind this speech. I wanna know who helped him with this speech. I wanna know who's really behind this whole thing. Too many things I wanna know just from this nonsensical speech.
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- Danyet
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I have no great love for the Pope or his religion but in this caae I agee with him.
When was the last time you saw a Catholic suicide bomber? Or catholics vandalizing Muslim churches for saying stupid stuff?
Even the Crusades against Muslims were self defense against Islamic aggression trying to convert Europe with their swords. Fortunately for the World the Crusaders pushed back Muslim powers back into the desert.
Imagine Europe now, if the Crusades did not happen. Dixie would be wearing a Burka!!! And there would be squablig between the Suni French and the Shiite Italians!!
When was the last time you saw a Catholic suicide bomber? Or catholics vandalizing Muslim churches for saying stupid stuff?
Even the Crusades against Muslims were self defense against Islamic aggression trying to convert Europe with their swords. Fortunately for the World the Crusaders pushed back Muslim powers back into the desert.
Imagine Europe now, if the Crusades did not happen. Dixie would be wearing a Burka!!! And there would be squablig between the Suni French and the Shiite Italians!!
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- MissLT
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That news is wrong because there is no rule a Pope can't apologize.Dixie wrote:Well, that's what I heard on the news, that there was a rule according to which the Pope can never admit he has been wrong.LennyeTran wrote: Yes, they can. Some Popes have apologized for what other Popes did in the past. There is no such rule that a Pope can't apologize.
- MissLT
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But is it his job to lecture them, though? And with those words? It's so not Jesus-like.danyet wrote:I have no great love for the Pope or his religion but in this caae I agee with him.
When was the last time you saw a Catholic suicide bomber? Or catholics vandalizing Muslim churches for saying stupid stuff?
Even the Crusades against Muslims were self defense against Islamic aggression trying to convert Europe with their swords. Fortunately for the World the Crusaders pushed back Muslim powers back into the desert.
Imagine Europe now, if the Crusades did not happen. Dixie would be wearing a Burka!!! And there would be squablig between the Suni French and the Shiite Italians!!
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Re: The catholic Pope apologises again?! oh no - boring!:(
I was thinking the same thing, too. Those Islamic leaders keep saying it's not right those Muslims did this and that. Muslims are not supposed to kill others blah blah blah and how wrong it is, but have they apologized? No way!LadyMacbeth wrote:I think that Catholic Church apologised enough hor its sins. We can hear or read here and there - Catholic Church apologises for this... or Catholic Church apologises for that... I hope to hear on the radion on TV that muslim world apologises for all these suiciders who are still killing and hurt many of innocent people who don't want to suicide themselves at all. Thus personally I will switch off the channel when I will see Catholic Pope apologising anyone for anything again:(
Sad but true.
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Yes, I agree with you, there are some Muslims with a tremendous anger, and the reasons of that anger are hardly to understand. But there are SOME Muslims who do such things, most of Muslims don't agree with their acting! I actually know a lot of Muslims, and most of them were offended by the words of the pope, but they don't understand either why someone could vandalize a church because of that.danyet wrote:When was the last time you saw a Catholic suicide bomber? Or catholics vandalizing Muslim churches for saying stupid stuff?
danyet wrote:Imagine Europe now, if the Crusades did not happen. Dixie would be wearing a Burka!!! And there would be squablig between the Suni French and the Shiite Italians!!
Funny image But you're not quite right, the crusades had nothing to do with Muslims "trying to convert Europe with their swords". The islamic invasions in Europe took place almost 500 years after the crusades, the crusades were happening because the church wanted to recapture "the holy city" of Jerusalem.
Yeah, the entire world would be so much more peaceful if those stubborn religious fanatics (on both sides!) would finally approach. If you do a bad thing to me, I'll do the same to you, and it gets worse and worse, that's what's happening since hundreds of years, and it seems some people didn't learn anything about it.
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there so many religions in this world. each of those teach alot of good stuff.. however,it couldn't make this live better.
why? does it means that religions are useless?
does it means that world without religions will be better?
i guess not. the source of the problem is human being itself (as i said in other posting)..
So we couldn't either blame religion or God.
about offends and being offended, i think thats not a big deal if we could practice what we have-or should have-learned from our religion
why? does it means that religions are useless?
does it means that world without religions will be better?
i guess not. the source of the problem is human being itself (as i said in other posting)..
So we couldn't either blame religion or God.
about offends and being offended, i think thats not a big deal if we could practice what we have-or should have-learned from our religion
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- Danyet
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Actually it is historically accurate that the Pope or Vatican has considered herself "Infallible". They consider themselves the "last word" and supposedely speak for God on Earth.LennyeTran wrote:
That news is wrong because there is no rule a Pope can't apologize.
Just Google "Infallible Pope" and see what you get.
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Statements by a pope that exercise papal infallibility are referred to as solemn papal definitions or ex cathedra teachings. These should not be confused with teachings that are infallible because of a solemn definition by an ecumenical council, or with teachings that are infallible in virtue of being taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. For details on these other kinds of infallible teachings, see Infallibility of the Church.
According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are as follows:
1. "the Roman Pontiff"
2. "speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….")
3. "he defines"
4. "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
5. "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4.)
For a teaching by a pope or ecumenical council to be recognized as infallible, the teaching must make it clear that it is definitive and binding. There is not any specific phrasing required for this, but it is usually indicated by one or both of the following: (1) a verbal formula indicating that this teaching is definitive (such as "We declare, decree and define..."), or (2) an accompanying anathema stating that anyone who deliberately dissents is outside the Catholic Church. (copied)
I don't see how Benedict couldn't apologize, according to this rule. He quoted the ancient King's opinion (non-related to Christian texts or Christianity) to make his point.
According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are as follows:
1. "the Roman Pontiff"
2. "speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….")
3. "he defines"
4. "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
5. "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4.)
For a teaching by a pope or ecumenical council to be recognized as infallible, the teaching must make it clear that it is definitive and binding. There is not any specific phrasing required for this, but it is usually indicated by one or both of the following: (1) a verbal formula indicating that this teaching is definitive (such as "We declare, decree and define..."), or (2) an accompanying anathema stating that anyone who deliberately dissents is outside the Catholic Church. (copied)
I don't see how Benedict couldn't apologize, according to this rule. He quoted the ancient King's opinion (non-related to Christian texts or Christianity) to make his point.
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similar article in bbc:
the whole story...According to the Roman Catholic Church, the Bishop of Rome IS infallible - but only in specific cases. The current furore over remarks made by the pontiff about Islam does not fall into this category.
Papal infallibility only comes into play with issues of faith that concern the whole Church. It doesn't apply when the Pope is expressing a personal opinion or, in this case, quoting from a historical text...
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about Pope and christanity
I think that some people exaggerate. Whatever it means. I mean they have natural tendencies to make little things big or looking for needles inside the hay-heaps. The worse - they find these needles.Yes, they can. Some Popes have apologized for what other Popes did in the past. There is no such rule that a Pope can't apologize.
He just didn't wanna apologize because what he said wasn't wrong. He didn't make it up by himself; he quoted someone's words. What seems wrong to me is that his motive. He said he wanted peace and build a bridge conntected Christianity and Islam. However, is it right to provoke someone's anger by telling them what they don't wanna hear?
If he quoted those words about them, which means he's already had his own image of them. Also, I don't think he didn't hear of the caricature incident. Just some guys drew some pictures, and the world was kinda upside down. They rampaged the streets and wanted to hang the guys who drew them. Now, those words were repeated from a mouth of the head of Roman Catholic Church. I don't think there is no one who wouldn't wanna kill him. What if those fanatics succeeded? And Catholics would do something back for a revenge. Blah blah blah blah... all the worst scenarios. Thus, the gap of hatred between Christianity and Islam will be even deeper and wider.
I wanna know his real motive behind this speech. I wanna know who helped him with this speech. I wanna know who's really behind this whole thing. Too many things I wanna know just from this nonsensical speech. Rolling Eyes
I know one man who always says "A devil is hanged on details". And he is right. All in all I think only wider perspective can save this world.
I don't think Christian Pope had bad intention. I think such intention was simply found by people who were looking for it. But it is the hardest thing ever to prove someone his/her bad will/bad intentions.
If you can do it - you can criticise Pope's speech.
If not - better go and take care about your own life - if you have it, of course.
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German Pope
What I would like also say is that life can be very awkward thing when each time you are starting to open your mouth to say things about A, B is interrupting you with his fancied ideas that you have just offended C.
Who is wrong and who is right when in such case it is ME!!! who should be scared of B attacking me physically/devasting my places of culture in case of my lack of any interest in B's crazy ideas???
Thus I think it isn't possible to find peace between Muslims and Christians. The first are simply too aggressive.
I also think Polish Pope was wiser that German. He saw the world/Europe from different perspective.
I think his perspective was different and wiser.
Probably also immpossible to implement but it seems to me that after all bit wiser.
Though who can know it... haha?:)
Who is wrong and who is right when in such case it is ME!!! who should be scared of B attacking me physically/devasting my places of culture in case of my lack of any interest in B's crazy ideas???
Thus I think it isn't possible to find peace between Muslims and Christians. The first are simply too aggressive.
I also think Polish Pope was wiser that German. He saw the world/Europe from different perspective.
I think his perspective was different and wiser.
Probably also immpossible to implement but it seems to me that after all bit wiser.
Though who can know it... haha?:)
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Re: German Pope
Yeah. But the thing is that it wasn't his place to lecture them, though. I mean, it would be no biggie if he was nobody and said it. I know I wouldn't care. Unfortunately, he's the head of the Roman Catholic Church. Majority of Muslims don't like to be lectured by him.LadyMacbeth wrote:What I would like also say is that life can be very awkward thing when each time you are starting to open your mouth to say things about A, B is interrupting you with his fancied ideas that you have just offended C.
You would think those Muslim religious leaders would take what he said in consideration and, "thank you for your words. We'll see what we can do." blah blah or something like that, you know. Just to be nice so he would get the f*ck off. But they got offended! Well, it's not like it's the first time, so whatever!
I think so, too. At least, he didn't give a da*n about their actions. He was more of don't blow me up, and I won't get in your way attitude. With this outrageous world it was the best solution, methinks.LadyMacbeth wrote:I also think Polish Pope was wiser that German.
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helo,
Hmmm... after publishing my letter above I thought at once: "what for Muslims hear what catholic Pope preaches at all? Do they intend to convert or what?"Yeah. But the thing is that it wasn't his place to lecture them, though. I mean, it would be no biggie if he was nobody and said it. I know I wouldn't care. Unfortunately, he's the head of the Roman Catholic Church. Majority of Muslims don't like to be lectured by him.
That was my first idea. The second was - "but who is Catholic Pope - doth he has double role nowadays - he is both the head of Catholic church and the head of Vatican state.
So I think he should always pinpoint which role he takes at the particular moment cause some serious misunderstandings can appear at once (no doubt).
I don't remember now what he exactedly said but I think he was talking about religion, he was far from giving political opinions so I think the reaction of Muslim world (very complicated notion) was really exagerated (as usually) :( (MY OPINION)
Well... the stranger is that he was almost shot dead. Don't forget about it. The man who shaped somehow 25 years of history of European and world's christian world could have been dead only in 1981 (instead of 2005).I think so, too.
He didn't tell much then and could be dead.
Can Benedict expect the same threat after his unfortunate speech?
Noone knows it.
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Re: helo,
Tell me one leader, religious or political, who hasn't been threatened to be killed? How humble or peaceful or whatever one is, there are always people who want to kill them for their position. It's strange, but this is how it is.LadyMacbeth wrote:
Well... the stranger is that he was almost shot dead. Don't forget about it. The man who shaped somehow 25 years of history of European and world's christian world could have been dead only in 1981 (instead of 2005).
He didn't tell much then and could be dead.
Can Benedict expect the same threat after his unfortunate speech?
Noone knows it.
Benedict's security system is now even tighter after his speech. His life is now almost up for grab. If they could get a hold of him, oh yes, they'd finish him good.
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about security
Hmmm... that's truth. Some people are jealous, other are professional killers...different reasons.Tell me one leader, religious or political, who hasn't been threatened to be killed? How humble or peaceful or whatever one is, there are always people who want to kill them for their position. It's strange, but this is how it is.
Ali Agca for example was a professional murderer. Before Polish Pope he never missed (I read somewhere). He targeted at the Pope from the distance of 4-10 metres (they say). And he missed. He was shocked when he got it known that the Pope survived. Ali Agca was from Bulgary (I am not sure).
Can you imagine what could happen in Europe/in the world if Turkish professional murderer would shot Benedict XVI?Benedict's security system is now even tighter after his speech. His life is now almost up for grab. If they could get a hold of him, oh yes, they'd finish him good.
Sometimes such sparks can start world-wide conflicts. For example historical books teach that murder in Sarajewo was a indirect cause of I World War.